This one's going all the way to the Supreme Court, folks -- and not a Supreme Court I'd rather have it in front of. But that's a "ten minute from now" problem. Right now -- Prop 8's been overturned by a Bush I - appointed judge.
By the way -- money well spent, Mormon Church. Money. Well. Spent. Why the hell are they allowed to be tax exempt again?
You know our motto here at Kung Fu Monkey: Everybody who wants to live in the 21st Century, stand over here. Everybody who wants to live in the 1800's stand over there. Thanks. Good luck with that.
146 comments:
This is going to be a popcorn muncher, to be sure. If SCOTUS punt and let the circuit court ruling stand, they get called activist judges by their right wing handlers from now until doomsday. Same if they hear the case and let the ruling stand. If they overturn it, they'll have a hell of a time writing that decision in English that hasn't been sent through the GTMO ringer.
Celebrate battles won!
But never forget the war continues.
Well, it was money well-spent -- they got their objective achieved. The judge issued a stay, so same sex couples still can't get married.
(I'd like to live over there in the 21st century, but there seems to be an awful lot of success in forcing me not to. Heck, the GOP seems to want me to be back in the early 19th century.)
Damn it ... was hoping there wouldn't be a stay. Ah well. This one's still an awesome win.
Cool, so I'm married again. Or still. I can't always keep track.
Don't get me wrong; I'm thrilled, but I'm also very, very tired that some people seem to think that who I marry is any of their goddamn business.
**stands and applauds**
Personally I'm not real clear on why ANY church gets to be tax exempt. But I'm apparently in the minority on that one.
In any case, yes, I was delighted to hear about this positive first step. I'm still really nervous about the outcome when it does hit the SCotUS, though.
I'm so glad! I fail to understand how allowing gays and lesbians to legally marry threatens heterosexual marriage. Considering the divorce rate among hetero couples, that argument is ridiculous. Equal rights means EQUAL in all things, including the ability to marry.
Yaaaaay!
they overturn it, they'll have a hell of a time writing that decision in English that hasn't been sent through the GTMO ringer.
Um, Bush v. Gore.
Sigh.
As a lesbian heading to L.A. in the not too distant future I'm celebrating tonight.
But I'll be keeping my fighting hat close by.
I've never been so glad that Iowa legislature likes to stop and think first. They refused to vote on a hastily-proposed amendment banning same sex marriage in 2009 (right after it was ruled legal), because it was so close to the end of the session. And so far, they've refused this year as well.
By the time they do vote, supporters of the ban will have a very difficult time convincing reasonable, logical people (and also the legislators) that same-sex marriage is the fifth horseman.
As much as I'd like to be thrilled, and on an immediate level I am, this lets a court that's been packed with some pretty dreadful people (and I'd like to thank our current president for his principled stance on the Alito hearings) turn a local decision into a national decision.
Truly, I'd really like to be more hopeful than I am.
I don't get why churches are tax-exempt, either.
After 6 years of legal gay marriage, Massachusetts has not only not exploded and collapsed into Hades, it has the lowest divorce rate in America. Hmm. But silly me, expecting facts to change anyone's mind.
Score one for Afflicting the Comfortable.
The disgustingly talented Patrick Farley reposted his Same Sex Marriage Debate Flowchart.
Cheers. very happy. Action is the real measure of intelligence.
gwangung: Bush vs Gore was a black swan. There was no precedent for the circumstances but Prop 8 has a lot of precedents including Loving vs VA, and the Civil Rights Act (plus the recently much-discussed 14th Amendment).
We've had civil unions for gays [granting the same rights as heterosexual unions] in the UK for some time without any Divine smiting going on.
I'm thrilled for you guys :-).
Meh, I'm kinda sick of the Mormon bashing. Sure, they want to take away my right to marry, but so do most other christian churches.
There's something ugly in the way that homophobia is getting pinned on marginal groups -- That it's all the Mormon's fault, or that Black votes were the reason it won. Bias against gays and lesbians isn't something that comes from some group of "other". It's something that exists in people exactly like you and I.
(Also, as far as the stay mentioned above: It's a temporary stay, as far as I can tell--it lasts only long enough for the defendants to explain why a more permanent stay should be granted--and given their track record, I don't expect that they'll be able to make their case.)
The whole problem could be solved for the future by the government. The argument that the married tax benefit should go to couples with children (or potential children),could be nullified by simply giving everyone the tax break and the term married can be for couples living together... period.
I'd like to live in the 24th Century, please. Especially the one with those cool holodeck thingies.
Also, churches are tax exempt because the American owner's manual says they will be:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Congress, and other government bodies under the authority of Congress, levy taxes and are the only legal authorities that may do so. To do so, they must 'make laws'. According to the Constitution, no law made by Congress may 'respect' an establishment of religion... which means, if one interprets that literally, that all religions are above/beside/outside all civil or criminal law here in the U.S.
Now, obviously, if somebody tries to argue that their religious beliefs require them to kill, steal, maim, rape, or otherwise harm others, civil authority steps in. But churches have vigorously defended their immunity to taxation over the years, on the principle that to force a church to pay income tax would be making a law as regards an establishment of religion.
If anyone reading this is starting to think that maybe we should just chuck the Constitution we have and start all over again, don't sweat it, it just means you are sane. Impractical, though... as flawed and arcane as our current version is, I shudder in absolute horror when envisioning what we might end up with if, say, the current Tea Party got to write a draft of a new one.
Every time I ask that question about tax exemptions for churches, I remember that the UCC was instrumental in the '60s for promoting civil rights. They worked both politically and on the ground to get the civil rights act through. Today, I know of a number of liberal churches that are actively working for an end to the war and on any number of social justice issues. If they lost their tax exempt status they'd be able to do a lot less of that work. So, six of one...
I'm in a hetero marriage and as human history shows, hetero marriages are threatened by other hetero people. My lesbian friends getting married isn't going to make me think "oh, hey, maybe I'll break up with my husband and try that."
I'm also in an interracial relationship, which was also banned until June 12, 1967 when Loving v.Virginia brought it down.
The Lovings' story was made into a moving, starring our own Mr. Hutton as Mr. Loving.
There is no such thing as the good old days.
Love. You. A. Lot.
@alan scott
No one is randomly picking Mormons out of the hat to criticize for Prop 8. They made themselves the center of the Prop 8 Hate by being the largest financial backer of the movement, to the tune of millions of dollars. Millions they probably would not have had without being tax-exempt.
By the way -- money well spent, Mormon Church. Money. Well. Spent.
I like to think of it as 'stimulating the economy', myself.
And it's one of the reasons why I am a member of a church with transparent accounting practices so I know what they're doing with my tithe, and can tell them to knock it off if I darn well please. Plus, we have this habit of ordaining partnered gay and lesbian folks to the bishopric. It annoys some other folks, but we still all family.
Not every Mormon agreed with the LDS church's dicision to rally for Prop 8, you know. Besides that, the term "Mormon" refers to well over a dozen different religions, the mosst prevelant of which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But all that aside... I'm a Mormon, a member of the LDS church even, and I'm glad this shit is getting overturned. Don't be so quick to condemn an entire church for a single act most of its members had no control over.
Personally I'm not real clear on why ANY church gets to be tax exempt.
Short version: Because the Founders failed to anticipate the chutzpah necessary to create a fake religion. So, yes, separation of church and state. Except now someone has to decide if everyone who claims to be a religion actually is, which gets you into philosophically murky waters. So perhaps it might be simpler to see how many churches could manage to qualify as not-for-profit organizations.
I'd like to live in the 24th Century, please. Especially the one with those cool holodeck thingies.
I'm holding out for transporter technology. But I hate commuting.
If anyone reading this is starting to think that maybe we should just chuck the Constitution we have and start all over again, don't sweat it, it just means you are sane.
Was it only yesterday that I said I got better at not stomping on stupid people? So, yeah, have a nice day.
"Not every Mormon agreed with the LDS church's dicision to rally for Prop 8, you know. Besides that, the term "Mormon" refers to well over a dozen different religions, the mosst prevelant of which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
Yeah, well. the Pope claims to act for all Christians, the Prophet-President acts for all Mormons. For those of us who grew up other faiths or have no faith at all, being subjected to the tenets of Mormonism cause they have money is neither fun nor funny; I've wanted to pay good money to ban Mormonism as a church or legalize discrimination before they again want to try to sass me or take away my right because God hasn't told them yet that my right to form a civil contract with another consenting adult means I'm people.
And they have a long-established track record of intervening only to hurt the gay community. They don't demand referendum on the sale of coffee or alcohol, or the imposition of their theology in public schools. So, yes, you all get to be tarred withe same brush until you tell your leadership to shove off; because you all tithe, your tithe dollars could be used to feed the poor or abet a gay bashing. That's a terrorism slush fund right there. And frankly, not very Christian of any of you.
And that's before we get to Camp Evergreen, where Mormons are taken for reprogramming, and then lock themselves into loveless marriages and sometimes suicide. or, if they're lucky, they escape, and we invest thousands of dollars in fixing the people the LDS tortured.
So, yes, you're all responsible for your bigoted leadership hurting people you've never met.
I am, however, taking up a collection fund to build a 300 foot tall statue of Dorothy when the Prophet-President receives his revelation that we're people too. I'll be there with a troupe of drag queens and big gay brass band. The LDS is /so/ The Church Philip Pullman warned us about.
It's funny how the "separation of church and state" always seems to mean that the state can't interfere with the church. Shouldn't the separation work in both direction?
To me, this is a no brainer. Prop 8 abridges the rights of gay people. Striking down Prop 8 abridges the rights of nobody.
I'm glad to see sanity winning out. I can't see how two other people, regardless of their gender mix, getting married will effect my life, or destroy my ability to marry.
@Stacy
Actually, most of the money came from individual donors. Many of these were mormons urged to donate by their church, but the donations still came from taxpaying citizens, rather than a tax-exempt organization.
This news makes me feel gay (as in happy)!
@ McDevite
I dream of living in a world where bigotry and hatred are things of the past. Unfortunatemly, uneducated and moronic people like you who hate more than 12 million people simply becasue of their faith are as big of a part of the problem as all the anti-gay idiots out there. Some people hate gays becasue they dont understand. Some people hate Mormons becasue they REALLY don't understand.
Most LDS Mormons I know dissaprove of gay behaviour, but don't hate the person themselves... many LDS Mormons I know, think as I do and have no problem with the people or the behaviour.
Most non-LDS Mormons I know aren't just accepting, but are gay themselves. There is a Mormon religion located here in SLC that was originally founded in San Francisco. It had roughly 50,000 members, and most of them are homosexual. I have two very good friends from High School that left the LDS church and joined THAT church becasue they still believed in church teaching en mass, just not its traditional stance on sexual orientation.
But aside all that, Tithing was not used to fund the prop 8 stuff. As Alan Scott pointed out, the Mormon funding came from individual donors. The "guilt" (as it were) that falls upon the Mormon leadership was the urging of members to do what they can to suppurt it... no funds I gave the church through tithing were utilized for this purpose, nor was anyone else's tithing. The church spoke out against gay marriage and in support of proposition 8, but it did not provide any funds itself to accomplish that goal.
And then everyone forgets that, while not supporting gay marriage, the LDS church has spoken out in support of general gay rights, particularly here in Utah, supporting a movement to prevent the non-allowance of work or property rental/ownership to gays... most people also don't know that many LDS General Authorities spoke with regret when prop 8 was passed, as they had hoped humanity would prevail over sexual fear.
Nevermind the fact that many other Christian churches (not just Mormon ones) also supported prop 8, and pushed for it to be passed. The fact that Mormons got the brunt of the blame was mainly becasue the word "Mormon" is almost as provocative as "gay" becasue its soemthing many people (espeically religious people) consider not normal. Granted it was legitimate blame as a fair percentage of funding in support of prop 8 was from Mormons, but if it had been another religion in its place (say Catholicism, for example), people wouldn't have cried about it nearly as much, and most wouldn't even remember it today.
@ McDevite
I dream of living in a world where bigotry and hatred are things of the past. Unfortunatemly, uneducated and moronic people like you who hate more than 12 million people simply becasue of their faith are as big of a part of the problem as all the anti-gay idiots out there. Some people hate gays becasue they dont understand. Some people hate Mormons becasue they REALLY don't understand.
Most LDS Mormons I know dissaprove of gay behaviour, but don't hate the person themselves... many LDS Mormons I know, think as I do and have no problem with the people or the behaviour.
Most non-LDS Mormons I know aren't just accepting, but are gay themselves. There is a Mormon religion located here in SLC that was originally founded in San Francisco. It had roughly 50,000 members, and most of them are homosexual. I have two very good friends from High School that left the LDS church and joined THAT church becasue they still believed in church teaching en mass, just not its traditional stance on sexual orientation.
But aside all that, Tithing was not used to fund the prop 8 stuff. As Alan Scott pointed out, the Mormon funding came from individual donors. The "guilt" (as it were) that falls upon the Mormon leadership was the urging of members to do what they can to suppurt it... no funds I gave the church through tithing were utilized for this purpose, nor was anyone else's tithing. The church spoke out against gay marriage and in support of proposition 8, but it did not provide any funds itself to accomplish that goal.
And then everyone forgets that, while not supporting gay marriage, the LDS church has spoken out in support of general gay rights, particularly here in Utah, supporting a movement to prevent the non-allowance of work or property rental/ownership to gays... most people also don't know that many LDS General Authorities spoke with regret when prop 8 was passed, as they had hoped humanity would prevail over sexual fear.
Nevermind the fact that many other Christian churches (not just Mormon ones) also supported prop 8, and pushed for it to be passed. The fact that Mormons got the brunt of the blame was mainly becasue the word "Mormon" is almost as provocative as "gay" becasue its soemthing many people (espeically religious people) consider not normal. Granted it was legitimate blame as a fair percentage of funding in support of prop 8 was from Mormons, but if it had been another religion in its place (say Catholicism, for example), people wouldn't have cried about it nearly as much, and most wouldn't even remember it today.
@ McDevite
I dream of living in a world where bigotry and hatred are things of the past. Unfortunatemly, uneducated and moronic people like you who hate more than 12 million people simply becasue of their faith are as big of a part of the problem as all the anti-gay idiots out there. Some people hate gays becasue they dont understand. Some people hate Mormons becasue they REALLY don't understand.
Most LDS Mormons I know dissaprove of gay behaviour, but don't hate the person themselves... many LDS Mormons I know, think as I do and have no problem with the people or the behaviour.
Most non-LDS Mormons I know aren't just accepting, but are gay themselves. There is a Mormon religion located here in SLC that was originally founded in San Francisco. It had roughly 50,000 members, and most of them are homosexual. I have two very good friends from High School that left the LDS church and joined THAT church becasue they still believed in church teaching en mass, just not its traditional stance on sexual orientation.
But aside all that, Tithing was not used to fund the prop 8 stuff. As Alan Scott pointed out, the Mormon funding came from individual donors. The "guilt" (as it were) that falls upon the Mormon leadership was the urging of members to do what they can to suppurt it... no funds I gave the church through tithing were utilized for this purpose, nor was anyone else's tithing. The church spoke out against gay marriage and in support of proposition 8, but it did not provide any funds itself to accomplish that goal.
And then everyone forgets that, while not supporting gay marriage, the LDS church has spoken out in support of general gay rights, particularly here in Utah, supporting a movement to prevent the non-allowance of work or property rental/ownership to gays... most people also don't know that many LDS General Authorities spoke with regret when prop 8 was passed, as they had hoped humanity would prevail over sexual fear.
Nevermind the fact that many other Christian churches (not just Mormon ones) also supported prop 8, and pushed for it to be passed. The fact that Mormons got the brunt of the blame was mainly becasue the word "Mormon" is almost as provocative as "gay" becasue its soemthing many people (espeically religious people) consider not normal. Granted it was legitimate blame as a fair percentage of funding in support of prop 8 was from Mormons, but if it had been another religion in its place (say Catholicism, for example), people wouldn't have cried about it nearly as much, and most wouldn't even remember it today.
@ McDevite
I dream of living in a world where bigotry and hatred are things of the past. Unfortunatemly, uneducated and moronic people like you who hate more than 12 million people simply becasue of their faith are as big of a part of the problem as all the anti-gay idiots out there. Some people hate gays becasue they dont understand. Some people hate Mormons becasue they REALLY don't understand.
Most LDS Mormons I know dissaprove of gay behaviour, but don't hate the person themselves... many LDS Mormons I know, think as I do and have no problem with the people or the behaviour.
Most non-LDS Mormons I know aren't just accepting, but are gay themselves. There is a Mormon religion located here in SLC that was originally founded in San Francisco. It had roughly 50,000 members, and most of them are homosexual. I have two very good friends from High School that left the LDS church and joined THAT church becasue they still believed in church teaching en mass, just not its traditional stance on sexual orientation.
But aside all that, Tithing was not used to fund the prop 8 stuff. As Alan Scott pointed out, the Mormon funding came from individual donors. The "guilt" (as it were) that falls upon the Mormon leadership was the urging of members to do what they can to suppurt it... no funds I gave the church through tithing were utilized for this purpose, nor was anyone else's tithing. The church spoke out against gay marriage and in support of proposition 8, but it did not provide any funds itself to accomplish that goal.
And then everyone forgets that, while not supporting gay marriage, the LDS church has spoken out in support of general gay rights, particularly here in Utah, supporting a movement to prevent the non-allowance of work or property rental/ownership to gays... most people also don't know that many LDS General Authorities spoke with regret when prop 8 was passed, as they had hoped humanity would prevail over sexual fear.
Nevermind the fact that many other Christian churches (not just Mormon ones) also supported prop 8, and pushed for it to be passed. The fact that Mormons got the brunt of the blame was mainly becasue the word "Mormon" is almost as provocative as "gay" becasue its soemthing many people (espeically religious people) consider not normal. Granted it was legitimate blame as a fair percentage of funding in support of prop 8 was from Mormons, but if it had been another religion in its place (say Catholicism, for example), people wouldn't have cried about it nearly as much, and most wouldn't even remember it today.
Sorry for the multiple posts; internet freaked out at me.
Now just to clear some misunderstandings up for you to help you on your quest for knowledge to abolish your bigoted hatefulness from your uneducated mind...
Any and all of the polygamus sects of Mormonism are not bound by teachings of the largest Mormon relegion, as the fact that they practice polygamy means they aren't LDS, becasue the LDS church ceased the practice over 118 years ago before Utah even became a state. The second most predominant Mormon church also does not practice polygamy (The Community of Christ, being the first offshoot religion from the LDS church, thus being the second Mormon church, was actually the first to abolish the practice of polygamy).
As for Camp Evergreen... thats a Christian overnight camp in Northern George that allows both children ages 7-14 and entire families to attend... but it has nothing to do with the LDS church, nor Mormons in general. It was actually founded by two Methodists from Atlanta.
It is clear that your grave misinformation has fueled a hatred as bigoted and morally questionable as any and all unwarranted gay hatred that could possibly be legitimized.
I encourage anyone and everyone to do real research on both homosexuality and religion (be it a Mormon faith or not), that includes both negative and positive sources, before passing any sort of judgements... and that could go for most anything else, as well, as such is a good mentality to have for everything, and shouldn't just be limited to sexuality and religion.
@Vicki: Both your U.S. and my Australia could do a better job of distinguishing between church property related to charitable causes for which tax exemption is entirely proper, and church property related only to the business of "being a church".
In Australia, a guy from the tax office literally described churches as "invisible" to his department: they don't investigate what church property is used for, which is why the pastor at the massive American-style Hillsong Life Church has an enormous home and multiple cars - "promoting the religion" is considered charitable, so his massive wealth is all part of the megachurch's "charity work".
All of what Anonymous is saying is why I used the phrase "Mormon Church" in my post rather than "Mormons", to indicate I was condemning institutional abuse. Much as I would say "Catholic Church" when discussing the child abuse issues rather than "Catholics". At the same time, the recent FEC finding certainly indicts the Church infrastructure proper a bit more forcefully than Anonymous seems to be implying iit was involved in his/her defense.
Although I'm aces with this discussion wandering around as it does, keep it civil, as is traditional here.
Well, personally, I wouldn't condemn individual Mormons--but it wouldn't hurt me none if they let the hiearchy know if they were displeased with how their tithe were spent.
I put my faith and money...in pie.
The Mormons and anyone else who opposes gay marriage are on the wrong side of history, and they know it. That's why they so desperately throw money and rhetoric at the issue. Everyone fights harder when they're about to get their asses kicked by the march of progress.
I stand by my faith and its views on Gay marriage.So I am sorry if thats too "1800s" for you.I dont hate gays.I put my faith and its clear on gay marriage and thats not in agreeance with it
Jason, you are free to have your faith and whatever views come with it. But at some point, and sooner than later, you'll have to face the unavoidable fact that your faith and views are moraly retrograde and supporting them puts you actively against the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" of fellow citizens. You may not hate gays and you don't even have to like them, but that doesn't mean their legal right to be treated as equals should be infringed.
"Separation of Church and State" isn't actually the way the Constitution words it; the wording provides some useful clues to its origins.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."
Remember where the Founding Fathers came from: England. They knew their English history and what a mess politicized religion made of their home land. Ever since Henry VIII created the Church of England in 1534 or so, England had an official church, and woe be to you if you belonged to a church other than the official church. If you were a Roman Catholic you were as good as a traitor, or at least you were treated as one, and you possibly had to practice your faith in secret. Roman Catholic churches and monasteries were taxed out of existence, or were bullied into submission through threat of taxes.
Ever seen "A Man for All Seasons"? That nice Paul Scofield was eventually put to death for not being willing to sign a paper saying that he agreed 100% with the Church of England. Too esoteric ... okay, ever heard of Guy Fawkes? He was a Catholic who, incensed that Henry VIII's grandson wasn't making life any easier on Catholics, decided to Do Something about it.
So then, what we see in the First Amendment is an expression essentially that you can't create a Church of England, nor can you put any rival church in the position of the Roman Catholic Church. While "Separation of Church and State" is an accurate description of the state of affairs dictated by the First Amendment, the specific scenario they were trying to forestall was the one that England had suffered through.
As to tax-free status, a later judge once declared "the power to tax is the power to destroy", and the history of the Roman Catholic Church under Henry VIII bears that out. But that cuts both ways; once a church gets too business-y, it starts becoming a taxable entity.
Decades ago, an enterprising wit came up with the Church of the SubGenius ("Eternal Salvation ... or triple your money back!"), and tried to land tax-exempt status. The IRS felt that the Church was too "funny" to be of any benefit to people. Odd how their standards work.
Opps, sorry, not Henry VIII's grandson. James was Henry's daughter's cousin's son, so that'd be, uh, a grand nephew?
@Jason: stand by my faith and its views on Gay marriage.So I am sorry if thats too "1800s" for you.I dont hate gays.I put my faith and its clear on gay marriage and thats not in agreeance with it
Unless I'm very much mistaken, no one is telling you that you can't follow your faith and your conscience. Yesterday's ruling did not make same-sex marriage mandatory.
However, please don't tell me how much you don't hate gay people, because you know what? I don't care. Regardless of whether or not you actively hate me, if you're trying to get my marriage forcibly annulled by supporting Prop 8, then you are doing harm to me.
It's like when you're standing on my neck (to borrow a line from Daria). I don't care why you're standing on my neck. I just want you to stop.
@Jason - There's nothing wrong with believing what your faith leads you to believe.
What's wrong is extending your personal belief to the arena of what laws ought to be made governing the secular business of state-recognised marriage.
Humans were getting married in societies that flourished on this planet before the Israelites existed as a people. Humans throughout history have been married in ways and for reasons that are completely alien to a 21st century Christian understanding of marriage - go read about political marriage in the Roman Republic sometime.
Same-sex marriage might be "new" but it's simply a reasonable political recognition of the fact that gay and lesbian people want the state to recognise their commitment to their partners as much and as fully as it recognises any marriage.
@Lou:
If you were a Roman Catholic you were as good as a traitor
Unless a Roman Catholic monarch happened to be on the throne at the time...
The idea that each person was responsible for his own relationship with God was pretty well established in the Colonies, so the idea of the state interfering in that relationship was probably not as big a concern as the possibility of tax money going to support one religion over others, regardless of whether taxpayers were members. Religious persecution wasn't a fresh memory, but abuse of government power was.
Jason: It wasn't so long ago that many people swore that their faith told them that interracial marriage was wrong. To quote from a massively-RT'd tweet today: "57% of Americans are opposed to same-sex marriage. When interracial marriage was legalized, 72% of Americans opposed it. Just FYI."
In the end, what most protects our individual religious freedom is to NOT insist that everyone follow our own personal religious beliefs (e.g. gay couples cannot marry). One day, if we follow such a policy, we will find ourselves on the minority side of an issue and we will call for equality when we had previously called for “our will be done.” When it is the will of another, we are not so quick to call for the abridgment of rights. And we would do well to remember that danger when attempting to legislate our personal beliefs. The fact that someone who holds different beliefs than you do is attempting to live according to their beliefs is not an imposition on your own practice of your own religion. Maintaining your freedom of religion does not mean forcing others to follow your beliefs as well. In fact, it requires the exact opposite.
Well done, California! Welcome back. We in Massachusetts wish your citizens all the best and hope that they will be as happy as ours have been for the last 6 years. :)
@Sullivan what does that have to do with me?I am not talking about interracial realationships.Gay marriage is against my faith.So I wont agree with it.with that said.I dont hate anyone its just a disagreement.
@Jason
What do you mean by you "don't agree with it"? If you think it's wrong then by all means don't do it. But are you saying you don't agree with allowing other people to do it? Because that's the heart of the problem. People who think that their views should be forcibly imposed on others.
As a Californian who not so fondly remembers the battle for Prop 8 all I can do is shake my head and ask why people can't just keep their noses out of other peoples' business. (This is no way applies to our awesome L-Team, by the by.)
I, for the most part, keep my opinions on such matters to myself so as not to cause great big Arguments with my loved ones, but this one really gets my goat.
Thank you, so much, Judge Walker for making it that much harder for people to legally discriminate against their fellows. Thank you.
@TimB To give sanction to gay marriage/same-sex marriage would be to give approval to the homosexual lifestyle, which my faith clearly and consistently condemns as wrong
to Jason: You of course can believe what you want. I for one believe that something someone supposedly said about 2,000 years ago is a flimsy basis for ignoring "equal protection" for some of our citizens. But regardless of what you believe, the "establishment" clause forbids making law that is based solely on religious doctrine; furthermore, discrimination based on sexual orientation has already been held to be illegal (and even unconstitutional) in many other areas.
So, fine, you can't condone gay marriage or for that matter gay sex... no one is demanding that you do so. But it is unconstitutional to pass a law against it, and in my view it is un-American to even support such a law.
Modern secular psychology recognizes that men and women are psychologically and emotionally designed to complement one another. In regard to the family, psychologists contend that a union between a man and woman in which both spouses serve as good gender role models is the best environment in which to raise well-adjusted children. Psychology argues against gay marriage. In nature/physicality, clearly, men and women were designed to “fit” together sexually. With the “natural” purpose of sexual intercourse being procreation, clearly only a sexual relationship between a man and a woman can fulfill this purpose. Nature argues against gay marriage
@Sullivan.I see your point.I just cant agree with it.I put my faith first.
Modern secular psychology recognizes that men and women are psychologically and emotionally designed to complement one another
No. It doesn't.
Now quit lying and get a real argument. Most of us can use PSYCH ABSTRACTS you know.
Modern secular psychology
As opposed to ancient sacred psychology?
Nature argues against gay marriage
Yet bonobos are natural, and use sex not just for procreation but for managing stresses in the social order. Nature is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you present it. Even male and female gender development is not a simple matter.
@ChelseaNH Citing bonobos as a model of natural behavior in the context of human psychology is rather missing the point. Their behaviors do not relate well to ours (and, in any case, we cannot really know the impact or motivation for homosexual behavior in non human animals).
Citing the vast number of human psychology studies that prove that gay men and women are every bit as capable of raising healthy well adjusted children as straight couples would be a better counter argument.
That said, the "Gay is unnatural" argument really is completely wrong, on many many levels.
@Daiv:
Citing bonobos as a model of natural behavior in the context of human psychology
The context broadened -- or perhaps we should say, became more grandiose -- at the end, to encompass "nature," not just human nature.
Citing ... would be a better counter argument.
You are entirely free to make it.
Y'know . . . I actually once met Antonin Scalia. It was part of a trip to the Supreme Court that my law school class took. One of my classmates was a former Supreme Court security guard, and he got us about 20 minutes w/Scalia to ask him some questions. (It wasn't my entire class; just about 20 of us made the trip.)
In hindsight (I wasn't all that political-minded back then, and hadn't paid attention to the individual judge's rulings) it is surprising, but in a few terse words Scalia encapsulated what is great about this country:
"The Bill of Rights," he explained, "is a counter-majoritarian document. Most of our self-governance is governance by the will of the majority. But a few things -- what you think, what you worship, your right to equal protection under the law -- these are individual rights too important to leave to the will of the majority. This is where the court steps in; to correct majorities that go to far."
Now, of course . . . this is Scalia. His commitment to this ideal is, let us say, somewhat less than perfect. But he is right in his description of how our government is supposed to work.
And it is his words that I always remember when I hear -- as I did today, listening to a caller on the Diane Riehm Show -- someone bitch about how a judge "shot down the 'will of the people.'"
Yes. The judge did just that. Because there are some places that 'the will of the people' is not allowed to go. Deciding that certain "other people" should be afforded second-class citizenship status . . . yeah, that's right up there among the stuff that "the majority" doesn't have the right to decide.
This decision will ultimately end up in front of the US Supreme Court. I will look forward to Justice Scalia's opinion.
Should be interesting.
Actually, when you think about it, it took a lot of people to ratify the 14th Amendment to begin with. So "the will of the people" is being preserved just fine, because "the people" said, "Hey, if some of us ever get out of line, feel free to have the judges smack us down. Even if we whine about it at the time, we'll thank you later."
Huzzah for the will of the people!
What I don't understand about the arguments citing that Person A's faith doesn't support gay marriage or that nature doesn't support gay marriage (aside from potentially being completely wrong) is that that is no basis for making laws. For example, you aren't condoning divorce just because you haven't campaigned to pass a law making it illegal, even though the Bible says that divorce is wrong in the vast majority of instances of divorce in our day and age. Just because you don't agree with it does not mean that you can't allow other people who have no problem with it to be a married gay couple. And, even if nature did not support gay marriage/couples/family as the most effective, efficient, and possibly emotionally stable form of family, that is no reason to pass a law denying gay couples the right to marry (and perhaps have a family). Nature supports kids not sitting in front of the TV all day long, either, but that isn't illegal. Psychology does suggest that a two parent family is advantageous for children, but we don't outlaw single parents or divorcees. So argue against why you think gay marriage is wrong all you want, but you can't necessarily use those same arguments to support legally denying gay couples the right to marry.
That is what so many people don't understand about this issue. Your beliefs, no matter what they are or on what they are based do not matter when deciding to abridge the rights of an entire segment of society. If gay couples had the potential to somehow cause WWIII, then you might have an argument against gay marriage. But gay marriage has zero effect on anyone but the people getting married, except in the same ways that non-gay marriage effects everyone else. So there is no basis for making it illegal just because you don't like it.
Jason said...
"I stand by my faith and its views on Gay marriage.So I am sorry if thats too "1800s" for you.I dont hate gays.I put my faith and its clear on gay marriage and thats not in agreeance with it"
Jason said...
"@TimB To give sanction to gay marriage/same-sex marriage would be to give approval to the homosexual lifestyle, which my faith clearly and consistently condemns as wrong"
You can't have it both ways. If the homosexual lifestyle is clearly wrong then you hate gays. It's because the homosexual lifestyle that you rail against is their existence. I am not gay only when I'm having sex. I am gay when I'm taking out the garbage or typing a response on some random blog board. If you don't approve of that, then what is left? I am not a part-time gay and if you condemn gayness then you condemn me and who I am as a human being. And, that I take as hating me.
What? Its very possible to have a disagreement with something and still not hate it.
I suppose. There is the love - like - dislike - hate spectrum. I just think condemning something puts it more towards hate than mere dislike.
@Jason, while it is entirely possible to disagree with something without hating it, in the instances of situations like Proposition 8 and Gay Marriage, the net result is pretty much exactly the same either way.
@mooney I will say it again.I dont hate anyone.I just diagree
@Jason, which is great for you, you can honestly say that you're not a bad person because you don't hate anyone.
Meanwhile, other people over there are being denied the right to marry the person they love.
If *you* were being denied the ability to eat a hamburger because Hindus believe cows are sacred, would it matter to you whether the people sponsoring the "no-beef" law hated non-vegetarians, or just disagreed with allowing meat-eating?
And yes, I just analogized gay marriage to a hamburger. Bask in the awesomeness.
lol that was a terrible analogy and one wrong on many levels.
@Mooney.1.I never said I was not "bad" seeing as your defintion of bad is prob not my defintion of bad thats something you cant say about me.Your analogoy furthermore does not work in comp to my views
I was raised in a very strict Irish-Catholic home. Spent many( and I mean MANY) years in Catholic school. I was raised to hate the sin - not the sinner. This goes for every kind of behavior that is considered "sinful" in the text of the Bible. There is a difference between "hate" for a person and not agreeing with their behavior or lifestyle as it pertains to religious beliefs. It doesn't make you a "hater" - a word I personally would like to see banned from use ever again. I think this is what Jason is trying to say. In his faith, he is taught that homosexuality is wrong behavior. It would appear that there are many people who also feel this way. I mean, Prop 8 did pass - in California (the LAST state I ever thought would pass it). Someone had to vote for it to pass in the first place.
There is a difference between "hate" for a person and not agreeing with their behavior or lifestyle as it pertains to religious beliefs. It doesn't make you a "hater" - a word I personally would like to see banned from use ever again. I think this is what Jason is trying to say. In his faith, he is taught that homosexuality is wrong behavior. It would appear that there are many people who also feel this way. I mean, Prop 8 did pass - in California (the LAST state I ever thought would pass it). Someone had to vote for it to pass in the first place.
But I think what's being missed here is that if you say you're hating the sin and not the sinner, then all things legal, such as Prop 8, is irrelevant to that. These things are of the world; they are also mass measures that try to treat a large number of people as a singular entity.
That doesn't square with the individualistic orientation of "hate the sin, love the sinner." In a lot of ways, its antithetical to it, and gets in the way of treating individuals on a one to one, individualistic basis.
The actions don't match up with the words. And that disconnect can easily lead people to think that these are "haters" out there
With the “natural” purpose of sexual intercourse being procreation, clearly only a sexual relationship between a man and a woman can fulfill this purpose.
Are you opposed to all forms of sexual relationship that don't bear children? Are the sterile sinners?
@Jason
I will say it again.I dont hate anyone.I just diagree
Here's the short version: So what?
Longer version: What difference does it make if you're motivated by hatred versus disapproval? It makes some difference to you and your sense of yourself, it might make some difference to the people who know you and their opinion of you, but it doesn't really matter to anyone else. Particularly the people you say mustn't get married, because you disapprove of them, like your disapproval is going to make them stop doing what you disapprove of, and what does that have to do with marriage anyway? What does your approval or disapproval have anything to do with anyone's marriage?
If you're just offering your position as a point of information, well, point noted; let's move on.
Hate the sin, not the sinner. I knew this would eventually rear its ugly head. It's something I would have said until I thought on it and realized you can't do it.
Homosexuality is not a behavior, it is an orientation. Sure, it generally manifests itself as gay sex and a fabulous sense of fashion but those actions are not homosexuality. So, by hating homosexuality, you are hating the person.
Think of it this way: Imagine if you thought left-handedness was sinful. Now, you realize your son is left handed because he's reaching for things with his left hand as he's becoming aware of his surroundings. You can train him not to write with his right hand and probably get him to throw a ball with his right hand and otherwise act as a right hander. But, he will always struggle with scissors and always instinctively want to lead with his left. You've managed to eliminate all the manifestations of left-handedness but you have not made the kid not left handed. And if you think left-handedness is a sin, there is no way to get that sin out of him because it is his orientation and not a thing separate from his being, like an action. So therefore, the kid is sinful just for being what he is.
So, when you hate the sin of homosexuality but love the sinner who is homosexual, you are creating a paradox. Homosexuality describes the homosexual just like left-handedness describes the left handed.
Now, you can hate gay sex and expect every homosexual person to be celibate for their entire life in order to get into your heaven. I'm not sure if it's realistic or humane, but if that's what you think your god calls you to do, then go for it. Personally, my god is too busy to be bothered with consensual adult sex and shellfish consumption.
This cannot have effect in fact, that is what I believe.
Salam Kenal Aja Gan
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Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah Pria
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah Pria
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah Pria
Cara Mengobati Kencing Keluar Nanah Pria
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