Thursday, June 19, 2008

Ryan v. Dorkman

I know, I know, I'm 2 years behind. But I have a very hard time arguing that this isn't the best swordfight on film in ... a loooooong time. Certainly better than anything in the official prequels. Please note, action fanatics -- it's the little flourishes that make a great fight, not the big stunt-y moments.

Go widescreen for the full effect.

46 comments:

Jay said...

If by flourishes, you mean the blocking of the fight, then I totally agree with you. The actual choreography is a hodge-podge of Nick Gillard with the styles of a number of Asian choreographers thrown in with some Soul Calibur for good measure. It's fun stuff, but nothing new.

The actual camera work, however, is what the prequel trilogy should have had if Lucas had hired a less traditional unit director. If he'd actually hired Sammo Hung, instead of just having lunch with him, then we might have seen something a little more interesting. Also, when I mention Soul Calibur, I'm not putting down the fight. Watching somebody play it, who knows what they're doing, is incredibly entertaining.

TdB said...

It's a fun fight. Completely ridiculous of course - all lightsaber fights are. None would last more than about 20 seconds with realistic choreography - with nothing to protect the hands or hilt of the weapon, a competent fighter is just going to slide his blade down yours and fight over.

Looking for a good fight choreographer? Get Gary Chelak in LA or F. Braun McAsh from Vancouver. Both are real swordsmen who can make a fight seem authentic. I have fought them both on numerous occasions, and they're good. Chelak is incredible with rapiers, sideswords, and longswords. McAsh is more well-rounded in that he's more than competent in a large variety of weapons.

I know that realism in fight choreography isn't a big deal to most of the viewing public. Blatantly unrealistic swordfights just rub me the wrong way, same as totally ridiculous uses of technology do. The very first episode of Alias I saw had the lead character break into a computer by attaching a device to the side of the monitor. I never watched another episode... I couldn't get past the fact that the writer/director could be so blasé about something like that. At least attach the magical device to the PC's case if you want us to believe it's reading the drive. I'm willing to suspend disbelief quite a ways, but if your show is supposed to be current day with feasible technology then it had better be feasible.

Didn't mean to rant :p

cb said...

Best, and probably only, realistic swordfight I've ever seen in a Hollywood movie was the end fight scene of Rob Roy.

But this video is pretty sweet.

Cunningham said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cunningham said...

and to get the full educational effect:

http://tinyurl.com/6bxtcz

dkbrklyn said...

By way of footnote, also liked how Caitlin Upton (Miss Teen USA 2007 contender) handled herself with one of these implements in the recent Weezer video. Some related links, here:

YouTube Shorts — Weezer Vid Showcases ‘Net Faves

Rogers said...

Okay, end of ROB ROY aside, as it's kind of the sword-geek gold standard. However, that was 12 years ago, which I count as "a loooong time"

Yes, actually I was referring to the blocking. It's insanely difficult to shoot swordfights well, and integrating good coverage with those little blocks and throws -- INSANELY difficult.

Winterman said...

But..

But...

Both their sabers were light colored. Both of them were Jedi. Why would two Jedi do that to each other?

My whole world is crumbling. Next you'll tell me that the Force is the result of microorganism infestation!

Curse you, Rogers! Curse you and your Sith-loving ways!

DJ said...

Believe it or not I think I worked in that factory,
Best summer job ever.
Still love “Rob Roy” or the sword fights in “The Princess Bride”

Anonymous said...

Kick. Ass.

Thanks for sharing.



Mark Wise
vandegraaf@earthlink.net

Richard Jensen said...

So, let's review.
We don't know anything about these guys.
We don't have two and a half films behind us to develop any empathic ties with the characters.
One of them is named Dorkman.
And one of them wears glasses during a lightsaber fight.
And yet, it still kicked more ass than the Obi-Wan-Anakin fight in Sith.
George Lucas had to be in tears when he saw it.

Earl Newton said...

I met these guys when we both brought our films (they brought Ryan Vs. Dorkman, I brought Fall of a Saga) to a fanfilm con back in 2004. (Has it only been four years? Gods)

What I remember most is Michael (Dorkman) breaking out his laptop to play an old kung-fu movie he had just purchased. These guys loved the art form of great fight scenes.

CJ said...

Maybe it was better from a purely scifi/nerd perspective (neat little touches with the lightsabers and such), but to a fan of martial arts and martial arts in movies, no, it was definitely not better than Darth Maul. Ray Park and his many years of experience in a variety of martial arts brought a fluidity and athleticism to his choreography that talented amateurs just can't match.

Maybe a layperson doesn't care, but to someone who does the body movements are the difference between a decent karaoke singer and Whitney Houston. Neat special effects only go so far.

Josh said...

I'm no swordsman, so I can't comment on authenticity, but I do know a combination of geekish obsession and genuine talent when I see it. Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryH1TB4gEUY

Disturbingly detailed and intricately choreographed (in the anime "laws of physics optional" way) amateur CGI fight scene between various female characters from console games...

Otter said...

That really is the most entertaining fight scene I've seen in a long time. Not necessarily "best fighting", but it was decent action and beautifully shot, with none of that damned music-video-itis that Hollywood seems to love these days. I'm very impressed.

Andrew said...

You're overreaching with the praise. For what it is -- a couple of Star Wars fanboys, a computer, and a youtube video -- it's fucking astounding. But if you want to throw it in with the big boys it's gonna suffer by comparison. There's a lot of moments where coreography is just a little off; a lot of times one fighter will have his sword positioned perfectly to block an attack that hasn't started yet, or duck before the other guy swings, or stuff of that nature. Just a little off and if I was judging it in the field it's actually in I wouldn't care, but best swordfight on film in a long time? There's flaws there.

And Mask of Zorro was only ten years ago, that's not so long! (I can't remember if Legend of Zorro had any good fights, but I hate that movie to death so I'm guessing no.)

Winterman said...

Andrew-

They're Jedi. Even in the films the fighters are positioned t block attacks that haven't quite come yet.

Jedi mind tricks.

Charles said...

Ahh, but what you don't understand, Andrew, is that Jedi can use the force to see into the future. In addition to being able to mutter vague prophecies, they can use this ability in combat to predict their opponent's next move. This is how Jedi are capable of blocking blaster bolts. So when one of them goes to block a swing that hasn't started yet, it's just because they know about it before their opponent has even decided to do it.

Otter said...

And Charles and winterman aren't even retconning there...

Noumenon said...

I can't "go widescreen for the full effect." That little button on the right-hand side that used to be "see full screen" now just lets me make the video even smaller. Stupid YouTube.

John Hudgens said...

The location is a tortilla factory in Atlanta that the owner generously donated the use of because he was a fan of the original RvD. I was there on location with them when the guys began shooting this in August 2006, filming interviews and BTS stuff for a documentary on the fanfilm genre that I'm slowly putting together...

Ryan is an Emmy-winning VFX artist now, and Dorkman is gearing up for a new film with Ray Park that's based on a Dark Horse comic.

For something that started off as a Star Wars fan forum contest entry, the RvD films have been *very* good to them... :)

Winterman said...

Small world, John. The Dark Horse project was written by a friend of mine. I wrote the forward for the graphic novel.

Awesome! The circle closes....

::cue maniacal laughter::

Marz Richards said...

Those fellows are students of Sifu Jonathan Wang at Beijing Tai Chi and Kung Fu Academy in Los Angeles (as am I.) Sifu Wang is the current US National Champion in traditional Chinese kung fu (tai chi, open hand kung fu and weapons) and is the Grand Champion in Sanda sparring. If you dig what they do, take a look at joining a class at www.beijingkungfu.com

Dorkman said...

Holy crap -- I go a couple days without reading your blog and then come back to find out I'm featured in it!

First off, I'll be the first to agree with CJ that the lightsaber fight in Phantom Menace is probably the best in the Star Wars canon, at least as far as martial arts go (I'd give it to Empire if we're discussing emotional impact). Ray Park's work as Darth Maul was both inspiration and revelation for what lightsaber fights could be -- and as John Hudgens mentioned above, I'm going to have the good fortune of working with Ray on an upcoming project. If you like the way we shoot action, and you like the way he performs it, I think you'll be in for a treat. :-)

(To say nothing of the fact that this is my first honest-to-god screenplay writing assignment, and reading your blog, along with John August's and Craig Mazin's, have prepared me better than any book or class. So thanks John!)

What Marz Richards said is also true, Ryan and I are students of Sifu Wang's, although both of us have been unable to attend class for some time due to out schedules (hoping to go back soon). Any improvement in our fighting in RvD2 as compared to the original is completely to his credit, and I would recommend the Beijing Kung Fu and Tai Chi Academy without hesitation.

Anyway, thanks for the link and the praise, John. long time reader. :-)

Dorkman said...

Oh, and if you really want the "full effect", we have downloadable Quicktime versions of the film available on our website, ryanvsdorkman.com.

Patrick Rennie said...

Can't comment on the choreography, but the story moments - the tug of war over retrieving the lightsaber followed by the whack in the face, cutting short the fist fight, the shenanigans against the wall, the destruction of the yellow saber, and the final kick at the end - those flourishes work perfectly.

szm said...

My name is inigo montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die. That was my favourite.

Anonymous said...

The whack in the face made the whole thing worthwhile.

Robert "kebernet" Cooper said...

I would also add, though the movie was horrible, if you watch Kenobi v Maul on its own, it is a great scene.

Brewmiester said...

Thread hijack in progress!!!

tbd said " The very first episode of Alias I saw had the lead character break into a computer by attaching a device to the side of the monitor." I don't know if it was a crt or lcd but I know my lcd monitor has usb and memory card ports on it. Not that Alias didn't jump the shark later on anyway and you saved yourself some grief :)

Kerry, en route said...

Vâchement cool! I must a-Google and try to find their first encounter. Trés fun. :-)

Um, is it too late to mention that my geekness extends to swords and martial arts? Competitive fencing was the reason I lived in Paris -- I was attempting to make the Olympic Team, but didn't.

I hope this belated admission isn't grounds for firing me... 'cuz I'm liking Leverage way too much. :-}

Oh, and FYI, in a weird-worlds-collide sort of wackiness, I studied swordplay under Anthony deLongis back when he was teaching at Bruce Lee's Inosanto Academy... and deLongis, it turns out, was Chris Kane's fight choreographer in "Secondhand Lions". According to the commentary, that work was the reason his character Lindsey had a big sword fight in the 100th episode of "Angel". Yeah, I'm a geek. But do check out ep 100 "You're Welcome" to see a pretty decent sword fight that made it onto network TV.

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Anonymous said...

On a side note, IMHO William Hobbs is the best fight choreographer for film or stage ever. The Richard Lester 3 & 4 Musketeers & The Duellists film had his choreography & they were great!! No bungee cords, no CGI, but original. Too bad George Lucas didn't hire him for the Star Wars series. Imagine Hobb's choreography paired with Ray Park's (Darth Maul) skills!

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