Wednesday, August 03, 2005

The President and Intelligent Design

That sound you hear is the "pop" of several billion Chinese and Indian economic planners getting simultaneous erections at this:

President Bush invigorated proponents of teaching alternatives to evolution in public schools with remarks saying that schoolchildren should be taught about "intelligent design," a view of creation that challenges established scientific thinking and promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Although he said that curriculum decisions should be made by school districts rather than the federal government, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters in a group interview at the White House on Monday that he believes that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories.

"Both sides ought to be properly taught . . . so people can understand what the debate is about," he said, according to an official transcript of the session. Bush added: "Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought. . . . You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes."
(Via the Washington Post)

Seriously. Here you are, Tsui or Sanjay, looking at a new cenury. A century in which the exponential curve of technology's rise becomes a sheer cliff. In which only the most intellectually nimble countries, best able to master new information technologies and couple them with manufacturing bases with high levels of technical training, will survive.

And you're looking at that big bastard across the ocean, the US of A. First to build the Bomb. First to master the secrets of the atom. First to build the semiconductor. First and only tribe of humans who actually put men on the GODDAM MOON, to have stepped on another rock in space. Decoders of the human genome, the VERY BOOK OF LIFE !!! How will we ever stop --

Wow, they forfeit. Cool.

I'm not going to rehash the whole ridiculousness of Intelligent Design, or as it's more commonly known: "Creationism Trying to Look Serious By, Say, Squinting -- Like Denise Richards Playing the Nuclear Weapons Expert In That Bond Movie". My pal Orac has all the necessary links. If you don't understand that there's absolutely no contradiction between believing in God and evolution, then frankly I'm not going to waste the time trying to jam a rhetorical screwdriver into your pineal gland's butterfly valve and crank up the air flow. Nor will I trot out another version of I Miss Republicans, although I suspect that a fair number of people out there are pretty rattled, as it's become the number one entry page to this blog over the last day.

I just have to say to my conservative friends ... listen, I don't want to hear SHIT when this comes back to bite us in the ass. When you're watching your children rocket downward through the Brave New Working Classes from gamma through delta straight to the epsilons, not a word. When the leader of your party turns his back on science, the product of God's 2nd greatest gift to us, reason,* when he turns from the very process which brought so much progress and prosperity to this land and encourages those would so eagerly toss aside rational thought itself ... gah, never mind voting Democrat: if my choice were between these cowards who would turn back the Enlightenment and anal-probing yet intellectually honest Martians, I would grit my teeth, vote for the Martians and learn to visualize my Happy Place during my Probe-Center appointments.

Am I reading too much into this statement? Am I making too big a deal of this? In one word, fuckno. This is just a symptom of what is, to me, the most destructive thing to occur in America in twenty years.

Even if your kids aren't directly taught ID or aren't in one of the new Bible Class districts, the overarching cultural damage has already been done. Through this group of RadicalRighties' constant rhetoric, they consistently strip away the idea that there is indeed a rigorous scientific process through which certain non-negotiable physical truths can be ascertained. They have suffused the county with with an intellectual laziness and a terrifying narcissism. Opinion has been enshrined as superior to fact. No longer need a person take into account the way the world works when forming their worldview -- they can instead hunt down "facts" and "theories" which support their own comfort zone, and what's worse, we can NO LONGER CALL BULLSHIT. Because if our leaders -- pardon me, your leaders -- don't call bullshit, who will? They have undermined the very process by which we know WHEN to call bullshit!

For the alleged "realists" in the public arena, the guys running the Right are now the ultimate masters of relativism.

Look my conservative pals, we have our agreements and disagreements but on this one, you've got to just take the hit. Don't ever look me in the eye again and try to play the cynicism-dressed-as-realism card again. Seriously. There's no high ground left here whatsoever. The ultimate representative of your political party, standing on the limitless future's shrouded shores, has decided he needs no compass, no maps, no guides, no stars with which to plot his course. Just a shrug and a chuckle before he casts off, eyes closed, into the darkness.

You wouldn't trust your children to an airplane pilot who did that, or a Scoutmaster. If your doctor said "You know what, we're going to blow off all the currently available research and treat your child's cancer with a completely untested, never scientifically proven bit of guesswork which, however, reinforces my world-view. Because what does science really know?" you'd be pulling out of the parking lot before he finished the sentence. But when it's public policy, it's OKAY?

Sure, it's just my opinion. But this is bigger than budgets, or how to fight wars, or how to manage our environment or resources, because where we stand on facts, reason, science, that informs every other decision we make in all those fields and every other. This is what determines whether societies live or die.

Again, our motto at Kung Fu Monkey: "Everybody who wants to live in the 21st century over here. Everybody who wants to live in the 1800's over there. Good. Thanks. Good luck with that."

* I have in a previous post established God's greatest gift to us as doubt. Let it never be said these rants lack an internal consistency.

(NOTE: Find that interesting, enraging or useful? I'm now blogging to raise money for the Army Emergency Relief Fund. Check the sidebar on how to donate.)

136 comments:

Jameson said...

And what a disaster it is that they've managed to make any skepticism regarding the specifics of Darwin's theory sound like the VICTORY of intelligent design over that silly, outdated evolution thing.

Offering ID to our kids in science class by some sort of "Fair's fair, let's air everyone's opinions on this and choose our favorite" model not only deprives students of legitimate scientific knowledge - it desecrates the concept of scientific inquiry.

Chris said...

Does this mean we can start teaching "The Earth sits on the back of a giant turtle" theory in our schools now?

That's been ignored for far too long.

1031 said...

Bravo, John. That was brilliant. I'm a-linkin' to that on my site as I type.

And everybody who's anybody knows that the Earth sits atop a giant sphincter. We are the entrance to the asshole of the universe.

Hooray beer!

John Cole said...

I don't know why I get singled out as the representative conservative, because I am about as ape-shit insane unhappy about this nonsense as anyone.

I don't know what is going on with my party anymore.

WordsSayNothing said...

Kung Fu Monkey is now my new favorite blog-by-a-guy-I-don't-know-in-real-life. Thank you, John.

Joshua said...

You're Kung Fu is strong and I'm glad, as a reasonable person, that you've got our back!

Rogers said...

John, you get singled out, because you're the type of conservative who's driven ape-shitinsane by this stuff. That is, the type I respect.

You gotta cross over, Cole, there's no alternative.

Ron said...

Nice one, John! I'm not sure they're hoping for the 1800's though. It seems to be much more medieval, though perhaps they'll try keeping some slaves to keep their technology working ;)

Stephen said...

Nice work John.

Don't know if anyone would agree with me, but I've found that the biggest thing that's changed in America in recent years is not that there are lunatics, nutters and fundies out there, but that *they're in charge*. They control government, policy and direction for the country, and even if they're still technically a minority, they're going to change a hell of a lot more before anyone stops them, it looks like.

And lets not forget that this is really the shit that led to the Iraq war, the decline of the media and the rise of these extremists in office - if people don't know how to rationalise between fact and opinion anymore, or even really think properly, then these are the things we'll get.

(And as an Australian, let me say that these arguments are suspiciously beginning to be applicable to my country as well...)

Philip_K_Dicked said...

In the hurry to ignorantly, and constantly refer to evolution as, "just a theory", the way that I'd maybe say, "I think it's going to rain today," these baffoons fail to realize that evolution may just be a theory, but intelligent design isn't even that.

Anonymous said...

PKD...

No, no no, no no no no NO!!!! (ahem - excuse me) Evolution is NOT just a theory. We cannot EVER concede that point. Mutations in the genome lead to a variety of traits. Environmental pressures lead to higher rates of reproduction among entities with certain traits but not other, depending on the habitat. This produces the variety of species that exist today. That's evolution. That's also an established FACT! The only uncertaintities are in the specific mechanisms. An analogy: cells in the eye are hit by light photons, sending neural signals to the brain. This is how vision happens. No one argues against this, even though we don't know all of the specifics of the mechanism. Same thing for evolution.

Please don't interpret the fervor of my post as being an attack on you PKD, just trying to help our side present as strong a front as possible. We shouldn't let the other side control the language of the debate.

Todd

Philip_K_Dicked said...

Todd,

I'm using theory in the scientific sense, just as I said, not in the "I think it's going to rain today," sense which would be a theory in general everyday speak.

In terms of science, a theory is pretty much the best we have.

Anonymous said...

Apologies PKD, misunderstood your original text. You are quite right in all regards.

erincarly said...

What do you think would happen to the "politically-correct, public-servant, representative-of-all-things-good-and-free" Bush when arriving at the press conference announcing that the Lefty front runner for the Presidency is a Jewish black lady? *

I could see "spontaneous combustion" as an option.

* Unknown to many, there's a large (relatively speaking) population of Ethiopian Jews wandering the planet, making the candidate a real possibility.

Timmy Mac said...

Dead on once again, Mr. Rogers. One quibble, though. Me and the Dalai Lama think God's greatest gift to us is compassion, but I'm an art fag, so there ya go.

SAP said...

Excellent post, Mr. Rogers.

PamB said...

I agree with chris - it's time to bring back some of the OLD creationist theories if we have to "accept" ID. I personally am rooting for the Discworld model of elephants and astrocheloneans, mainly because I like the idea of believing in the gods is like believing in the postman and it just encourages them.As a second choice I'd go for a model of turtles all the way down. Makes just as much sense to me.

Curt said...

John, I think there is a deep incompatibility between evolution and religion, and I think there's something misguided about shielding even moderate religious views from the implications of evolution out of "respect" or "tolerance." The incompatibility isn't a logical one, which is why it's so easy to politely or conveniently ignore, but as Taner Edis points out, the progress of science has relentlessly converged on a strictly naturalistic picture of the cosmos. Evolution is one of the hugest leaps forward in the disenchantment of our world. It absolutely, positively does encroach on territory once claimed (and even still claimed, as we see) by religion. I don't understand why religion should be given a pass on this. I don't think that revising religious understanding to accomodate scientific progress makes it any more reasonable; I think it's just the refinement of an error.

Suppose, one dark night, two kids hear a noise outside. One says it's a ghost. The other goes to look, and finds out it's a cat. So the first kid says, "Well, it's the ghost in the form of a cat," or "Well, it's a cat possessed by the ghost!" or some such evasive nonsense which preserves, however ridiculously, the "hypothesis" that the noise was produced by a ghost.

That is exactly how the increasing "sophistication" of liberal or moderate religion looks to me. The sophisticated revisions preserve the original error in the face of disconfirmation. I really think religion should be called on this, and forcefully.

Philip_K_Dicked said...

Curt,

You make some excellent points and I’m not sure whether I agree with you or not. In one way, as our scientific understanding of life and the universe becomes more refined, religion will look more and more archaic and foolish as it tries to convince everyone that a big, crusty white guy in the sky makes everything happen in our heliocentric universe through magic.

This leads to its own kind of backlashes, like the fighting to get prayer put back into school, putting monuments into court rooms and fighting to teach fantasy in science classes. The Christian establishment knows that unless it’s all pervasive in our lives, from a very young age, it’ll lose the war to science, reason and popular culture.

I think the reason some of us currently appease Christians is because we fear a more direct rejection of what we perceive as progress. A Christian who outright rejects evolution is clearly worse off than a Christian who accepts evolution, but under the condition that they can accept it as the work of God. One is coming closer to at least having a perception of reality that more closely conforms to what we, to the best of our ability, can know. That Christian is also one step closer than the other to getting to a place where they can say, “Humans came about because of evolution,” without having to hinge it on God.

We can either ease them out of their stupidity in baby steps, or make them cling to it all the more forcefully by attempting to destroy their established worldviews all at once, kind of like cornering a dog. You corner them and they’ll attack back with renewed and “justified” fervor, reeling from some sense of victim-hood and wish for martyrdom.

Either way, the Dominionists can stop progress, not unless they get their own religious policy, and even then it’ll only be America. I should rephrase; they can’t stop progress in this world, they can only make sure America is no longer at its forefront.

rone said...

If you don't understand that there's absolutely no contradiction between believing in God and evolution

I would quibble here that one should not believe in evolution, and the above implies that. One should understand that the theory of evolution is supported by a mountain of evidence. Scientific theories do not require, and should shun, belief. The evidence and facts support the theory, or they don't — that's it.

Stephen said...

pkd,

The problem with your statements is that your attitude towards religion is exactly the view that extreme fundies are having regular paranoid fantasies about. It's the sort of attitude that lets them run their inane "we're being persecuted for our beliefs" fantasy, no matter how generally untrue it is.

Let me say first that I am entirely unreligious personally, but I'm not sure why anyone should care what relgiously beliefs an individual has. No matter how inane we may think they - that's not the point here. This is about the social indoctrination of extreme religious beliefs into all facets of society, and their promotion over modernist views in science, philosophy and everything else.

I don't care what Bush or anyone else thinks about religion - I care that he wants it taught in science classes, and wants it promoted over modern science. And if they can't put modern secularity and observance of the US constitution over their personal beliefs, then that of course is a large part of the problem as well.

By way of comparison - can anyone say why it is that no other western country (that I'm aware of anyway), seems to have any signicant issue with this intrusion of extreme religious thought into public education and public life, even though all these countries have a certain percentage of fundamentalist Christians that surely could cause this problem, but apparently don't?

Philip_K_Dicked said...

Stephen,

I don't generally care about anyone's religion, but religion isn't just religion anymore. Here in America, religion is politics, and that's why I’ve come to care.

And the fundies are always going to have paranoid fantasies, whether or not there are people like me, and whether or not the people like me are actively plotting against them.

Stephen said...

>>> Here in America, religion is politics, and that's why I’ve come to care.

Well, I guess that is the crux of the issue then.

How is it that one of the few (only?) nations on earth that actually wrote into its founding documents a statute to avoid "state religions" and promote freedom of religion is now in this position?

Paul said...

If they teach it as follows...

"Here is the theory of evolution, and its supporting evidence (insert evidence here) and here's the theory of ID and its supporting evidence (insert silence, crickets, tumblweeds and far-away chuchbells here)"

...I don't see a problem. It can only hurt ID support.

In other words, they can talk about it, but not promote one over the other. Show them the evidence, and let kids make up their own minds. If evolution is so blatantly obvious there won't be a problem.

For the record, I believe evolution happened and is happening. I don't believe in God, but I can't prove He didn't create the world six thousand years ago with a comlete, but fake, fossil record. No-one can.

No one can prove He did either.

That's what makes Science vs Religion such a cool debate.

Magess said...

John Cole, you're not alone. Just today my Dad (a staunch conservative) was arguing with left-wing Christians about how stupid it would be to teach creationism in schools.

Katsushiro said...

F'in *BRILLIANT*, my good man!

Reading this has officially made my day, and given me a happy. I'll be pointing folks at this, oh yes I will.

just john said...

I'm still looking for a list of medical procedures and remedies that are based on evolution, or based on stuff based on evolution.

Why? I figure this is the Darwinian way out of this mess. Find all the stuff that wouldn't exist without Darwin, and urge creationists to carry medic-alert cards saying "DON'T DO ANY OF THIS STUFF ON ME!" (In the same legal-type verbiage that people who refuse transfusions use.)

If they start dying off as a result, then the species shall be improved. If they survive, they'll have saved everybody a bunch of money.

I'm not kidding about this, but I'll admit I've been too lazy to compile the list.

Anonymous said...

I agree overall, but I think your comment "If you don't understand that there's absolutely no contradiction between believing in God and evolution, then frankly I'm not going to waste the time ..." is condescending and wrong-headed. Condescending because the argument is far from trivial. Wrong-headed because it's wrong. Many people, progressives, with lots of smarts and kudos think there is an inherent contradiction between rationality and religion. These include Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris (I can't remember how to link; to find summaries check the Huffington Blog). I'm in their camp. To my mind its the fuzzy-headed liberal view of 'why can't we all just get along and pretend that there are no contradictions" that's to blame. As Sam Harris says, "It is time we recognized that this spirit of mutual inquiry, which is the foundation of all real science, is the very antithesis of religious faith".

Cliff said...

Wow. I always thought blogs were a waste of time.

A possible retort to the "just a theory" BS would be "The theory of relativity is 'just a theory' too, but I wouldn't go to Hiroshima and tell them that." Apparently explaining the difference between a theory and a hypothesis is too detailed for people whose “thinking” fits on bumper stickers, so a snappy retort might, just might, work.

One of the functions of adults (and other perhaps competent people) supervising education is the separation of what is worth learning from what is not. Just as we would not expect schools to give equal time or credence to courses entitled “History of Madonna” or “Art history of tattoos”, even if some people might desire that, we expect them to be screened out and truly worthwhile things made available. Alas, the triumph off the know-nothings seems complete.

Anonymous said...

Curt -

I agree that there's something facile in the common claim that evolution and religious belief are simply not contradictory. Though I happen to agree with the claim, it's often tossed out rather blithely by those without deep religious commitment or much knowledge of evolutionary science. In fact, the methodological materialism that underpins scientific method quite easily and commonly morphs into ideological materialism, which is of course incompatible with religious belief. I think it takes an effort to hold onto the methodology without embracing the ideology. I do however believe it's possible and necessary to do so. I think you undersell and misrepresent sophisticated theology, which bears no resemblance to the ghost cat story you describe. You've basically set up a straw which you can easily knock fdown. I think many neo-Darwinian evangelists (such as Dawkins) do the same when it comes to religion. Their arguments for its obsolescence would be more compelling (and interesting) if they could refrain from caricaturing its claims or dismissing non-fundamentalist faith as inauthentic.

joshiki said...

The so-called religious organizations which now lead the war against the teaching of evolution are nothing more, at bottom, than conspiracies of the inferior man against his betters. They mirror very accurately his congenital hatred of knowledge, his bitter enmity to the man who knows more than he does, and so gets more out of life . . .

Such organizations, of course, must have leaders; there must be men in them whose ignorance and imbecility are measurably less abject than the ignorance and imbecility of the average. These super-Chandala often attain to a considerable power, especially in democratic states. Their followers trust them and look up to them; sometimes, when the pack is on the loose, it is necessary to conciliate them. But their puissance cannot conceal their incurable inferiority. They belong to the mob as surely as their dupes, and the thing that animates them is precisely the mob's hatred of superiority. Whatever lies above the level of their comprehension is of the devil.

--H.L. Mencken, Homo Neanderthalensis, June 1925

joshiki said...

The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. Its evil effects must be plain enough to everyone. All it accomplishes is (a) to throw a veil of sanctity about ideas that violate every intellectual decency, and (b) to make every theologian a sort of chartered libertine. No doubt it is mainly to blame for the appalling slowness with which really sound notions make their way in the world. The minute a new one is launched, in whatever field, some imbecile of a theologian is certain to fall upon it, seeking to put it down. The most effective way to defend it, of course, would be to fall upon the theologian, for the only really workable defense, in polemics as in war, is a vigorous offensive. But the convention that I have mentioned frowns upon that device as indecent, and so theologians continue their assault upon sense without much resistance, and the enlightenment is unpleasantly delayed.
---H.L. Mencken

Anonymous said...

Two Catholic councils (1909 and 1950) both reached the conclusion that there was no conflict between scientific investigation of biology, geology, etc. and the Catholic faith. More specifically there was no conflict between evolutionary science and the Catholic faith. One official pronouncement of the Mormon elders (1930) also found no conflict between science and the Mormon religion, specifically including no conflict with evolution.

They both specifically emphasized that the church teachings and the scientific understanding of the natural world were independent, and therefore the churches would not express any opinion about any scientific theories. These are from two well established, very conservative, Christian organizations and are the result of substantial internal theological analysis.

I know the theological backgrounds of the bishops and elders who find that there is no conflict. Perhaps those here who see a conflict could explain why their understanding of Catholic and Mormon theology is superior to that of the bishops and elders.

jimmiraybob said...

Paul - In other words, they can talk about it, but not promote one over the other. Show them the evidence, and let kids make up their own minds. If evolution is so blatantly obvious there won't be a problem.

Three problems that come immediately to mind:

1) The ID proponents aren't looking for a simple discussion at the start of a class. They want to destroy the science class by diverting already scarce resources and dilluting and confusing the subject at hand. For instance, in Missouri fundamentalist Christian Republicans introduced a bill that would have required 50% of the curricula be devoted to ID. Not just the biology class either - all of the sciences were targeted.

2) There is no evidence in support of ID that doesn't involve supposition, guessing, and wishful thinking.

3) The proponents of ID want it taught along side of science at the primary and secondary education levels where students aren't yet ready to make an informed decission about a subject with which they aren't yet familiar. In science class they should be taught the essence of modern science. In Sunday school (or maybe comparative religion class) they should be exposed to ID. As the students develop and their thinking matures, they can make their informed decissions without diluting the science instruction with religeous indoctrination or diluting the Sunday school classroom with empirical observation, reason and critical thinking.

dishington said...

I love it, the KUNG FU MONKEY TRIAL. The creators of an alternate reality are now really alternating creationism to turn it into a science. VERY COOL. I am a believer in the pendular theory of inanity, and these wobblies are so far out of their minds that the backlash has to be coming. Doesn't it?

Polymath said...

Just found your blog, and you RULE. But I have a hard time believing that in this entire discussion no one has yet linked to

http://www.venganza.org/

Hysterical satire, yet makes the point unmistakably...you gotta read it if you haven't already.

peapod said...

Via Billmon @ http://billmon.org/archives/
---------
The so-called religious organizations which now lead the war against the teaching of evolution are nothing more, at bottom, than conspiracies of the inferior man against his betters. They mirror very accurately his congenital hatred of knowledge, his bitter enmity to the man who knows more than he does, and so gets more out of life . . .
Such organizations, of course, must have leaders; there must be men in them whose ignorance and imbecility are measurably less abject than the ignorance and imbecility of the average. These super-Chandala often attain to a considerable power, especially in democratic states. Their followers trust them and look up to them; sometimes, when the pack is on the loose, it is necessary to conciliate them. But their puissance cannot conceal their incurable inferiority. They belong to the mob as surely as their dupes, and the thing that animates them is precisely the mob's hatred of superiority. Whatever lies above the level of their comprehension is of the devil.

H.L. Menken
Homo Neanderthalensis
June 1925

Curt said...

To my anonymous interlocutor: If you don't like being lumped together in "caricature" with the fundamentalists, then maybe you should take that up with them. They always claim to speak and act for Christians, Christianity, Judeo-Christianity, and even religion, and yet I seldom hear so much as a peep of protest or dissent from the likes of you.

The Rev. Barry Lynn is a rare exception, and I admire him for his efforts to maintain the separation between church and state in America. But for the most part, I don't see liberal or moderate Christians rallying around him or putting forth any other effort to take back the public face of Christianity--except in discussions like this, when they whine and complain to secular liberals about being lumped together with fundamentalists.

I'll tell you what: if you can provide some links to blog posts or comments where you've taken a stand against fundamentalists to their faces (so to speak), then I'll beg your pardon. Otherwise, your silence and passivity make you complicit in everything they say and do in the name of your faith, so why shouldn't I lump you together with them? Why shouldn't I hold you accountable for that? Why should I, an atheist, be the "safe" party you can bitch to, when it's the fundamentalists who are publicly and institutionally defining Christianity in all those ways that supposedly don't represent you?

Look, the religious right is waging cultural war, and that isn't just a metaphor for them. Secularists need to start fighting back, and hard. We've really held back for far too long because the beliefs of liberal and moderate Christians place them in the crossfire, and whenever they get grazed, however lightly, they scream and cry--to us, always to us--about how unfair it is. Our compunctions about possibly offending nice, decent, "reasonably" religious people are no longer a luxury we can afford. We need to cut loose with all the ammunition that science and rationality place at our disposal, and if the precious beliefs of liberal and moderate Christians get ventilated in the process, oh well!

Shyster said...

Please recognize that the best possible way to deal with this idiocy is not to take it head on. You can’t argue logic to a man who is acting on pure faith and superstition. The only way to advance this argument is to teach the Old Testament in our schools. Have a class for high school students and teach the material. Make it a mandatory class (kids love that) and teach it ALL — not just the parts the creationists want taught. Let the Bible speak for itself and defend the laws and rules found in the text. My bet is that Pat Robertson and Dobson will be suing to stop that class within a year of it starting. Give them what they want and let them deal with the fall out.

Major Dickweed said...

Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. Bacteria, viruses and other microbes provide evidence of this in real time. Fossil remains provide historical evidence. What is in dispute, however, is the method - does the original Darwinian theory provide the best model, or are there better models. The food fights among the evoutionary scientists relate to the model, not the fact of evolution itself. Bush and his sycophants ought to be ashamed.

Ricardo Azevedo said...

I enjoyed your post. Here's Asimov making a similar point in 1981:

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. [...]

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the US and contributed immesurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. [...]

Are we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will invariably recede into the backwater of civilization, and these nations that retain open scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement.

I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the US, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simple-minded as their "science". If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

Anonymous said...

Curt -

From your anonymous interlocuter.

I am not a Christian, rather an Orthodox Jew (quite liberal for my community, politically, and to a degree theologically). I've taken part in organizations and groups within my community that reflect that liberal stance (and could be considered controversial). There are plenty of religious voices beside the shrill and mulish ones you refer to, though there's no doubt that the mulish now dominate the conversation . It's not generally because my 'like' isn't talking, we're simply not being listened to. We have smaller bullhorns and much less clout. The religious 'right' (whose theology I believe is often too shapeless, self-serving and undemanding to even deserve the term fundamentalist) define the conversation in the eyes of of the media.

I believe Bush is using this issue cynically. It's just part of the simple, dirt-farmin', brush-cuttin' game he's been playing with himself for decades and with the country for the past 5 years. I don't think he seriously subscribes to ID arguments; I'm sure he's given them little thought. He likes the idea of himself, the former silver-spoon preppie, as the God-fearing cowpoke with his finger in the dyke, holding back the tide. He likes too, the fact that it allows him to score big politically. It's part of an elaborate act, so ingrained now that it's almost sincere.

Another interesting point -- how often and how fervently those (like Bush) who question biological Darwinism, cling to social Darwinism, make it an anomalous cornerstone of their theology.

Anonymous said...

Creationism is God's way of ensuring that somebody other than the US will be running the world by the end of this century.

CathiefromCanada said...

I stole -- no, no, "paid tribute to" -- this piece in my blog.
But along with India and China, you could also mention Canada -- give us your poor biologists, geologists, physicists, and even your biocheminist masses, yearning to breathe free. . .

S E E Quine said...

` Only heard this news today! (Yes I DO live under a rock.) I hope our next leader isn't this scary:
` What we need is a president that doesn't judge from personal intuition or changes the subject when facts become inconvenient.
` Such a president would most likely be ABLE TO understand the difference between science and pseudoscience.

Axiom said...

Trackback by hand:

His point is valid. I love the "opinion" one-liner: we should all remember that scientific processes do not care about the Average American's opinion. It's just not relevant. Nothing about your feelings can change reality and that's a good thing.

Cuinn said...

I got here through Marn, and I'm glad she posted the link to this. If you don't mind, I'm going over to my journal to post a link to you too.

While I've always been willing to homeschool my children if it was the best thing for them, I always imagined that it would be a situation where they had a real talent for an art or sport or something, and they needed a flexible schedule to work with their goals. Fine, fine. I support that. I never realized that I might have to homeschool them in order to make sure that they get what I'd consider to be a basic education in math, literature, and SCIENCE. I'm all for people having their own opinions, regardless of if I agree with them, and I do think that school is part of where children learn to form their own opinions, but unless we're talking about attemting to prove theorums, opinions should not be taught as part of science.

Or did I miss something? Are the proponents of ID setting up labratory conditions and pursuing the proof of their ideas with scientific testing? 'Cause that would be fun to watch.

Anonymous said...

In reference to joishiki said:

The so-called religious organizations which now lead the war against the teaching of evolution are nothing more . . .

I'm afraid the evidence for ID would only be "sexed up."

Anonymous said...

For a real scare, read http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/8664>this.

I know, it's *that* Bill Moyers. But it bears reading.

ritchie said...

Most people believe that:

2 + 2 = 4

but not everyone...

So it seems only fair that...

Curt said...

Anonymous--

My mistake, I apologize.

Now that I have a better sense of whom I'm dealing with, I'd like to address some of your other points in your previous comment.

My ghost/cat parable isn't the "straw man" argument you say it is. Modern theologians are far more guilty of over-complication than I am here of over-simplification. The blunt truth is that we have the Bible on record as providing or implying anthropomorphic supernatural explanations for all sorts of natural phenomena. In that regard, it shares the basic logic of every other religion that we now prefer to recognize as mythology.

The "methodological materialism" of science generally amounts to nothing more than investigating natural phenomena for which religion has already supplied a supernatural explanation. Such rigorous investigation invariably reveals impersonal natural causes rather than anthropomorphic supernatural ones. Just think--and I mean really try to wrap your head around--how many natural phenomena were once explained supernaturally but are now understood in thoroughly naturalistic terms, thanks to science. Even spiritual experience--the last, most subjective, and therefore supposedly inviolable refuge of supernatural explanation--increasingly admits of strictly naturalistic explanation (see Massimo Pigliucci's essay "Neurotheology" at Rationally Speaking).

That track record is a giant arrow that points in only one direction, and in light of it, you're certainly correct that "it takes an effort to hold onto the methodology [of naturalism] without embracing the ideology [i.e. the metaphysical conclusion that we live in a purely natural cosmos]." Why anyone would care to make that effort would be a mystery, but modern psychology has suggested some persuasive answers to that question.

Theology's response is retreat and revision disguised as increasing sophistication and "spiritual evolution." Despite the fact that religion stands revealed on so many fronts (not only scientific) as deeply, systematically untenable, rather than give it up as an artifact, a mythology, theologians try to keep it alive in essentially the same way Ptolemaic astronomers tried to keep their increasingly problematic system alive.

Harry said...

Excellent post.

swifferBoat said...

Great post.

One comment, though.

Evolution is not a theory; it is a fact. Natural selection is a theory.

As S.J. Gould once pointed out, it's important to make this distinction because theories and facts are NOT, as some assume, different points on some spectrum of certainty. They are entirely different things. Facts are data; theories are explanations of those data. That evolution has occurred, does occur, is occurring, is settled beyond a doubt, for scientists and for most of the world's population. How it occurred is theoretical, but a modified form of natural selection has been leading the race since the 1930's, when it made its comeback. Nothing has challenged it because it meets all the many, many criteria of a scientific theory admirably.

ID does knowledge meet any of the criteria for a scientific theory (aside from meeting the Occam's Razor test of being simple).

Evolution is not a theory and we need to stop calling it that. Natural selection is a theory and we need to say, yes it is but ID is not.

Anonymous said...

Curt -

From anonymous interlocutor.

The Bible is not intended as a physics manual and has never been perceived as such by the majority of Jewish commentators (I'm not qualified to speak of Christian commentators). It deals with the 'ought' and not the 'is' and its physics were rendered invalid before the modern era. The kinds of questions which trouble religious belief today are not entirely new. In different form, but equally pressing, they moved the medieval Muslim, Jewish and Christian philosophers to attempt their syntheses of science and revelation and even to begin the erection of a wall between the two realms. The separation of the 'is' and 'ought' is not a new theological dodge, a contemporary shortcut around the hard questions. It has a lineage.

You may still of course cast doubt on the Bible's validity. I don't think its obsolete science, given in the only terms available at the time, invalidates the moral demands it makes, given in terms that are timeless. You may still, if you are a consistent and rigorous neo-Darwinist, question the very notion of behavioral freedom on which these demands are predicated. You may claim that my belief (leavened with doubt as it is) only shows that I'm in thrall to some especially pernicious meme. I could likewise claim your outlook, or Dawkins', as meme-driven, with no traction of its own.

I don't attempt to convince you of my point of view. I don't believe I can by means of an argument. I simply don't think your characterization of 'sophisticated' religious thought comes close to doing it justice.

Anonymous said...

You know, gravity's really just a THEORY too.

Now, where was that open window again?....

Dichroic said...

What annoys me is that it's been quite a while since St. Augustine wrote that if your interpretatoin of the Bible conflicts with our best knowledge as to how the world works, then it's your interpretation that's wrong. Just because the modern fundies can trace their religious lineage to Martin Luther, who rebeled against the corruption of the Catholic Church, doesn't have to mean they should reject everything intelligent anyone involved with the Church ever said. After all, the Inquisition was a Catholic thing too, and they seem to be entirely happy bringing that back.... OK, sorry got a little carried away there. But though I'm not a Christian at all, I don't see that being one has to mean denying evidence.

Anonymous said...

Science, by definition, has no intent. Religion, by definition, does. They cannot be compared because they do not overlap. You cannot put them side to side.

Science is the study of how things work. To get good science one needs to be impartial so as to understand the results most fully. Science requires the removal of as much bias as possible - when we allowed bias in our theorizing it has always caused trouble. When we tailor our findings to our opinions we get phrenology, race theories, germ theories and a terrible record of medical and public health decisions.

We take findings from science and assign weight and importance to them. That is not science, that is politics and ethics and philosophy. It is these classrooms we discuss why we can stomach animal testing for diseases but not for cosmetics. Why we need better gas milage for cars.

If you attempt to interject your religious beliefs (and no one isn't saying ID isn't a cover for religion, unless they know they're trying to pull one over on the populous) cannot be science because you have your answers beforehand. Not only does it make kinds incapable of becoming good scientists, it keeps them from becoming good kids.

Imagine if we just said - okay, we know tests are scary and you might not know all the answers, so what were going to do is make every test from now on an open book test. That way you don't need question anything, just find it in the book (and we all know which book these people want us to go to) and write it in the appropriate space. Sound like the formula for a world-leading nation, right?

They want nothing less than to take away our (God given) free will, as they have willingly surrendered it to others.

Nicky McLean (N.Z.) said...

Look fellows, you're talking past the point, and I don't mean that The Shrub doesn't care what a few people with brain cells to chat together think because he hasn't got your vote anyway. Gloat in superior reason as we may, it doesn't matter.
The key is that community solidarity is overwhelmingly more successful than isolated individuals in supporting the raise-the-next-generation requirement for species/societies to persist. So much so that it takes a really bad downside to the cohering belief for it to have a nett negative effect. Even "children are an impediment to a career" (as evidenced in most rich societies these past few decades), normally a rapid route to extinction, is not enough so long as the society employing that belief accepts that recruitment is a satisfactory continuation.
If such a negative is not currently acting now, it doesn't matter now. Thus, explotation of oil is a massive plus now, and will remain so for a few years yet. The pollution downside is all that is operating now and is minor, as are the costs of the current political unrest in securing such supplies, so far as those who make the decisions are concerned.
So, when The Shrub blathers on about Intelligent Design, he is affirming and consolidating the belief system of his community, to their continuing benefit. Projections of bad consequences, possible or likely, some time in the murky future are irrelevant. His base is reaping the benefits of unity now, while those who are disadvantaged are diffusing their resistance amongst various ineffectual whimperings, and others perversely imagine that they also are gaining when in fact they are losing.
Yes, in the long run, bad beliefs will be weeded out but in the short run there is a lot of turbulence obscuring the small negatives of such bad beliefs. And in the long run, we're all dead.

Anonymous said...

If you really want to teach evolution, it is best to address intelligent design in a respectful way in schools. Children are going to hear about intelligent design one way or the other, and give them a little credit, they aren't going to see your dismissal of ID as the final answer. Perhaps a one way to address it is the way my high school biology teacher did; that is, teaching evolution for the entire unit, then mentioning "of course, it doesn't explain everything." He briefly described the complexities of certain organisms, and said that some people find it difficult to believe that it is all random chance. He let us drawn our own conclusions, then tested us on evolution and made sure we knew it backwards and forwards.

I also just want to mention that some people believe that the conflict is not necessarily between evolution itself and religion, but instead _Darwinian_ evolution, which is based on random genetic mutations and natural selection. You can believe that God guided evolution, but, to the best of my admittedly imperfect knowledge, not also believe in Darwinian evolution.

Faith does not mean an absense of reason; often it simply means understanding that human reasoning is fallible and incomplete.

Alina said...

You know what, I vote Sawyer's "Calculating God" becomes mandatory school curriculum. It can become that screwdriver that opens bloodflow to the brain and people's eyes on the subject that religion and science are not mutually exclusive. And I say this as someone who was raised atheist.

Anonymous said...

Yes. I've got something to say...

Whilt agreeing totally with KungFuMonkey and laughing my fcukin' head off in the process.... allow me to make the following observations:-

1. Bush couldn't PERSONALLY give a damn about this subject. It's FAR too deep for him to get his little brain around. He is being used, wlilingly of course, in a political poll driven game. We all know that. to my main point - which some here might not warm to.

2. Were he NOT a part of a cynical political movement to divide and rule your once great country - were he a respected, thinking, intelligent leader.. there is a case for this:-

To teach about the existence of "creationism" in an objective way. But not stopping at the creationism of the Bible, as if that flowery story were the start and end of the history of the idea.

Such teaching would place the Bible story in the context of the eastern teachings which predated it. Namely... Hindu teachings.

And a day of Brahma is millions of years. I think their "version" ages the earth 140+ trillion years.

Their philosophy also tries to grapple with the notion of involution as well as evolution is I'm not mistaken.

Darwin's teachings provide the framework for the western "materialistic" mind to arrive at the "Truth". The teachings have...holes. things that are difficult to explain within its framework. If nigh impossible.

But to present the Bible 7 day's 10,000 years ago version as the only alternative is plain... bizarre. Though IMHO is contains a kernal of truth if you add a dozen zeros to the start date and the process.

Last cryptic comment...to fully grasp the notion that perhaps we've been progressively "devolving" frmoa once perfect image of "God" (whatever that means) form... also requires taking on board the possibility that time flows simultaneously in both directions. The stuff of Quantum Physicists and mathmaticians.

The whole subject is FAR TOO COMPLEX to be legislated by a chimp.

Trufula said...

"By way of comparison - can anyone say why it is that no other western country (that I'm aware of anyway), seems to have any signicant issue with this intrusion of extreme religious thought into public education and public life, even though all these countries have a certain percentage of fundamentalist Christians that surely could cause this problem, but apparently don't?"

I thought there was no creationist *cough* I mean, intelligent design, teaching here in England, but this place was pointed out by new scientist:

"Emmanuel, classified as a ‘beacon school,’ is one of the Labour government’s recent experiments in supporting private faith schools. The national Office for Standards in Education (Ofsted) has given the school high marks, and parents are clamoring to get their students into the school—in fact, only a small percentage of students who apply are admitted. The school head, Nigel McQuoid, is an ardent Bible-believer. Some of the teachers at this non-denominational secondary school are creationists, and in the words of the Guardian, they ‘are undermining the scientific teaching of biology in favour of persuading pupils of the literal truth of the Bible.’"

However, in our case it's not state institutions promoting it, but a single privately owned school. I don't know why there are less fundamentalist 'all the bible is true' Christians in the UK, but it seems clear to me that they make up a far smaller percentage than in the US. In fact there's a far smaller proportion of church-goers in general. This difference is bound to change the level of influence on state education, though the government provides loopholes.

Anonymous said...

Why does the US have this problem and not Europe? Most countries have a National education system and a National Curriculum. In the US, education has always been local. Not until 1947 was the percentage of high school graduates above 50%.

Only since the 60s has a college degree been more or less a requirement to teach school. After WWII, the US tried to upgrade its science and math but struggled because of a lack of teachers that understood new math and science. SInce education was/is local, many schools simply did not teach evolution or require that it be taught.

The only real standards are set by college entrance requirements. Since parents want their kids admitted to the best colleges, the schools have no choice but to prepare the kids.

The other factor is that people hear disconnected but conflicting narratives. Most Americans remember the pretty picture of the ark, the rainbow and all the zoo animals. Most Americans also know about dinosaurs. However, the two narratives are separate and separately reinforced. This allows for much cognative dissonance on the narrative for how life began.

The campaign for creationism is well funded and has a lot of support at the grass roots level. The campaing to teach evolution is a requirement leveled at locally controlled public schools that may view these mandates as meddling by elites.

bakho

Flidais said...

I was looking for the "Gravity is just a theory" comment, but I was hoping it would go a little farther....like, say, proposing the creation of a counter theory of Intelligent Anti-Gravity, complete with a cliff testing site to provide data. Then we would simply have to remind every lemming - I mean fundie - jumping that they would receive their angel wings on the way down, only to spend the next ETERNITY in a hospital gown as a sex-free 18-year old playing a mini-harp and staring at white clouds.... Wow, that's something to look forward to...

Still it would leave the planet free for the "elite" to finally move forward towards creating a heaven on Earth....

Emery said...

First, allow me to lay out my scientific views.

The ID website (intelligentdesignnetwork.org) explains that they are "seeking objectivity in Origins Science." Right. A press release from 1/5/01 entitled "IDnet Urges Kansas State Board to Teach Origins Science Objectively and Without Religious or Naturalistic Bias" leaves little doubt that intelligent design is a fundamentally Christian concept, similar to Creationism.

Naturalism, which is similar to materialism, is the doctrine or belief that everything we see in the universe and nature is the result of purely natural causes, i.e. chance and natural law, and that design inferences are invalid. "Naturalism is not a proven theory," adds Calvert, who is also a lawyer. "It is a philosophy which attempts to attribute the origin and diversity of life to mere chemistry and physics, while censoring evidence that might lead students to infer design as a possible cause for life. Limiting inquiry and explanation in this manner violates the rules of logic."

William Harris, Ph.D., a nutritional biochemist and IDnet Managing Director, agrees. "We believe it is fundamentally wrong to use Naturalism to limit inquiry and interpretation in the area of origins science. To exclude at the outset any hypothesis or possible explanation for the origin of life and its diversity is in conflict with the scientific method. All evidence should be considered without prior philosophical bias if science is to remain the search for the truth."

IDnet is concerned that Naturalism, in addition to its conflict with logic and the scientific method, will also lead our schools into violations of the neutrality required by the Establishment Clause of our Constitution. Further, it will have profound negative effects on our culture and our ethical and moral values.


The Wikipedia includes these two paragraphs in their article on Naturalism: W. V. Quine describes naturalism as the position that there is no higher tribunal for truth than natural science itself. There is no better method than the scientific method for judging the claims of science, and there is neither any need nor any place for a "first philosophy", such as (abstract) metaphysics or epistemology, that could stand behind and justify science or the scientific method.

Therefore philosophy should feel free to make use of the findings of scientists in its own pursuit, while also feeling free to offer criticism when those claims are ungrounded, confused, or inconsistent: philosophy becomes "continuous with" science. Naturalism is not a dogmatic belief that the modern view of science is entirely correct. Instead, it simply holds the processes of the universe have a scientific explanation, the same that modern science is striving to understand.


Evolution is technically a theory, but has been backed with enough hard scientific data over the years, including the recent addition of proof that evolution is caused by the change in the frequency of an allele within a gene pool, to be taken by most to be law. The cause of this change might be natural selection, but may also be genetic drift, or gene flow. Scientists are still working on that. Logic, which these ID people seem so keen on, forces one to take the evidence at hand, fossil records, genetic records, and synthesize them using deductive and inductive reasoning into a coherent theory--evolution. To introduce design as a possible cause is to throw faith into the mix and thus negate logic. My favorite is their use of the Establishment Clause. The Establishment Clause does not require neutrality. It requires a separation of church and state which Naturalism does not violate, while ID does.

According to the IDnet website, "Intelligent Design is a scientific theory that intelligent causes are responsible for the origin of the universe and of life and its diversity. It holds that design is empirically detectable in nature, and particularly in living systems. Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement that includes a scientific research program for investigating intelligent causes and that challenges naturalistic explanations of origins which currently drive science education and research."

That paragraph sounds to me like, "We believe that God created everything and the animals and humans and stuff are proof. We are now setting about to 'scientifically' prove that there is a God." You cannot prove there is a God. God is inherently based in Faith. That is the point of God, to believe in something that is unprovable. I am also worried that the ID people will set about to prove their point "scientifically" by bending already established fact to their needs. This goes against everything the scientific method stands for. The scientific method requires that results not be bent to meet the expectations of the hypothesis, but rather use the results to fine tune the hypothesis good or bad. I have a feeling that no matter what the results, ID "scientists" will continue to search for "proof" of their "theory."

Having said all this and pushed for science, I have to say that I am an incredibly religious and spiritual person, too. For those who cannotunderstand how religion and evolution mix... I believe that the Bible is part history, part allegory, part fable. The seven days story of Creation was created to explain to peasants complex nuclear physics that we in the current age are only beginning to understand. Evolution, the Big Bang, etc., do not mean that God does not exist, nor does the existance of God preclude evolution or the Big Bang. They can co-exist. I personally believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth, but did it in the way that modern science explains it, not in the way the Bible does.

I have to admit, however, that after reading the explanation of intelligent design I had to agree with its basic idea. I do believe that there is an intelligent design that drives the world. As a biology major I have held a human brain in my hands and could only think that God must have played a part because something so complex and so amazing could only be the work of God. This does not mean that I do not subscribe to the theories of evolution or natural selection, genetic drift, or gene flow. I do. Wholeheartedly. God may just take it that extra 0.00000001% that turns an ape into a human, or an atom into a universe.

Science and faith do not have to compete, they can peacefully co-exist. I just do not belive that anything but hard science should be taught in our public schools. Leave the faith lessons to the parents. If they want their children to learn about Creation or intellient design (I just can't force myself to capitalize it), then they can enroll them in a parochial school. By allowing ID to be added to public school curricula we have sent ourselves back in time to before the Scopes trial. I'm so proud of our country.

Our forefathers would be disappointed in America if they saw prayer in public school, the Ten Commandments in courtrooms, and intelligent design being taught to our children. Basically, our political situation in America today amounts to a state supported religion. What was the point of "separation of church and state" if not to safeguard from exactly this type of thing? What almost scares me more is having a President who feels he can overrule the Constitution at a whim.

I'm moving to Canada.

smartalek said...

This has been said in other times and places, but it is clear that to be fair -- which is after all, all these so-called i.d. ppl want, right? -- all Sunday Schools should be forced to teach evolution, and let the kids decide. That's all they want, equal time, right? Plays both ways. I'd take that deal -- what do you want to bet they wouldn't?

Anonymous said...

deja vu! I was a kid in a Texas parsonage in the 50's. The whole family, but especially Dad, labored under a cloud, a social fart: namely, my older brother was becoming a well-known anthropologist and, worse yet, contributing new ideas to our knowledge of evolutionary processes. In the 60's I studied social structure and demographics of a Maya village in Guatemala. The very first day I was summoned to the Catholic rectory to be debriefed as to whether I was there to espouse Darwin heresy. Since I wasn't, I "dissasembled" enuf to reassure the priest. Then, for 40 years I was free simply to turn my conversation to someone else if God, the Creator arose as a topic--say, in a visit to Texas. But now: The enthronement of ignorance, both loud and subtle versions. As several bloggers have said, it sets hard science as just one choice on the steamtable, where other choices have been tricked-out in their presentation. What a retreat! What a shot-in-the-foot defeat!

Blackbyrd2 said...

Soon we can teach creationism as taught in the texts of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Blessed Be His Noodly Appendage.

Excellent post, and discussions, btw.

Dave said...

The problem is that there IS NO DEBATE. There is only a debate from the perspective of the creationists. The evolutionists aren't debating at all because they are so far beyond the whole science versus superstition thing. If we're gonna allow ID be taught in schools so that kids will have "both sides of the debate," we may as well also teach kids the theory that babies come from storks so that they will ALSO have both sides of that, as well. The key here is education and unfortunately, not enough people are partaking in this essential element/aspect of human evolution and existence. People are so FUCKING STUPID!!! As H.G. Wells once said, "The fate of mankind is becoming more and more a race between education and catastrophe."

Sherry Rogers said...

If you think of religions as parasitic superorganisms that compete with each other and evolve, then what is in the best interest of a religion: 1--Intolerance for other religions; 2--Ignorant people; 3--Lack of education about the actual origins of life; 4--A tendancy to never question; 5--A tendency to want to kill anyone who is immune to the bulshit; and probably many other things, but these five come to mind right away. Yes there have been religions that didn't behave this way, but they were outcompeted by the ones that were more brutal and intolerant. It's "Survival of the fittest religion". When you look at religion in terms of the coevolution of genes and culture, the religion "superorganism" is creating an environment where intelligence, originality, and lack of membership in a powerful religious group is bad for your overall darwinian fitness. Survival of the fittest becomes survival of those who fit in. I hate it. When you view the politics of democracy in light of this, you begin to see how dangerous religion is. Is there a tolerant humane stance that can stand up to and outcompete the brutality and intolerance of the christian coalition?

Bush is like the queen bee of the protestant superorganism, busy putting all his soldier bees and worker bees in key positions so that protastantism will continue to have an advantage after he is gone.

One wonders if the only way out is to create a society that is brutally intolerant of intolerance, brutality, and ignorance. A catch 22 for sure.

So I'm scared for the future...I taught vert zo and natural history labs in Alabama (UAB), and I can already tell you that these tactics of the religious right have done serious intellectual damage. No one understands evolution. Here is a quote from a student, "Do I have to understand evolution if I don't believe in it". My answer was, "How do you know if you believe it if you don't understand it".

Anonymous said...

If the ID groups get their way evolution will be just the beginning. It's simple. Evolution relies and depends on geology and biology. Both of those sciences will have to be either ignored or 're-written' to conform to their viewpoints if ID gets inserted into science classes. In addition, astronomy will have to be ignored as well, because a huge amount of evolution relies on cosmic events. It won't stop at just evolution. Science in general will take a backseat.

Anonymous said...

personally speaking i agree that there is a place for both science and religion in this world. being religious however does not mean one need to give up on rational thought.
religion when used best gives us hope and a moral guide for living. at its worst, religion can be racist, elitest, ignorant and self serving.
science and good scientist need to be around to tell us how the world works. religious leaders need to be around to be moral guides. whether u subscribe to a religion or not one still can make a case for what is "right" and "wrong" in the world (although some may argue this is subjective...would u like to live in a world where anyone and can do anything? argueing sujectivity is a mute point, you got ur moral understand from something and it prob was from some religion or parts thereof).
i would not like to live in a country where religous ideology ruled, however i would also not like to live in a country where only science was the true calling. a smart mixture of the two can make a country great (like ours).
one can have their own beliefs on anything they wish, that is ur right, ur free choice. however, one does not have the right to imposs a belief on anyone, and neither does the government. however, a person with scientific FACTS can teach these facts as the absolute truth because there is no moral argument on the subject. fact is fact and whether u believe it or not u still have to accept certain truths to function in this world.
i believe that science does not curtail the existance of a god or gods, i believe that it only enhances a belief in the devine, although one does not have to believe in any religion at all to still appriciate the majesty of our world. we have such free choice and freedoms that we never knew possible because people of science have brought these possibilities to us. ID is not science. they may hide behind their own "science" but their work insults all other men of science who work hard daily to understand our world better. the fair is fair argument is also mute in point. just because u believe in something doesnt mean i have to let me children hear about it. u got proof there is a god? well then by all means teach it in school. but faith is not proof, suggestions and large leaps of logic are not proof. faith is believeing in something that may not be provable. what faith would one have if there were hard facts to support it? i dont have faith in gravity...i know its there, works everytime. but i do have a faith in god, he may not work all the time the way i like it, but nevertheless i still believe. i do not ask u to believe, i may verywell be wrong...but so what? if im right i live a good life and do well for others and ill go to heaven. if im wrong? i still live a good life and do well for others but i wont exist anymore...is that really such a bad thing?

Karl said...

Sorry to interrupt the debates here.

Intelligent Design...

Honestly, I think religion markets itself as much as any other normal business.

Not as popular as Pagans? Steal their bloody holidy and make it their own.
Not as popular with believers who worship multiple gods? Cut up God into three pieces {I never got the Trinitarian belief, never will.}

Don't want to be caught teaching religion in a pubically funded school?

Bring in the PC machine.
Instead of saying "God created Earth" just say Intelligent Design.

Everything is bottom line.

If you're not allowed to market to your potential customers one way, you find another avenue to advertise.

Intelligent Design indeed.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry to break your bubble but many of those American accomplishments you stated were by Christians.

A Judeo-Christian America accomplished all those feats. Not an Atheist America.

I'm not saying that Religion should be taught in school. I am simply refuting your point.

Anonymous said...

Thank God for boobies

Anonymous said...

And this is probably only the beginning - next up, the ID guys' website will link to the Flat Earth Society..........

Paul H said...

Hmmm. "Religion has become political" - surely it has almost always been so.

Except perhaps for the pre-agrarian societies with ancestor-worship at their core, religion has been the tool of preference for controlling societies for thousands of years (predating Judeo-Christianity).

And as for opinion replacing fact this is almost totally out of control now. The media (e.g. the Murdoch/Fox empire) has almost completely abandoned pluralism and balance in favour of rants from pundits pushing everything in the conservative grab-bag from "Global Warming is wrong" to "Your taxes are being wasted on serial single mothers".

But don't blame the media for this, it's the punters buying the papers, gossip magazines and tuning to the reality TV programs who encourage the pulp.

Maybe the only answer is to join the Right. "Compassion is so last century! Get a life and join the totally self-interested!!"

weld monkey said...

didn't this happen the last time there was a christian crusade lead against islam? i think it was called the dark ages?

Anonymous said...

The science crowd is missing a terrific opportunity here by not looking closely at the ID statement. The ID theorm is that humans are so complex that humans must have been made by God. In other words too complex to have arisen by random mutations. This entails that if God exists then he made humans too complex to arise from random mutation. This is Testable. 1st develop a genuine metric of complexity not the garbage you get from the discovery institue mathmaticians and then run it through a computer and see if the requisite complexity can arise from random mutation. When it does then by the logic of the creationists "humans are too complex if and only if God exists" Since humanity is not too complex, as show by simulation then God does not exist. And trust me there is nothing as fun as seeing a fundamentalist christian deny the existance of God.

Anonymous said...

I randomly came across this debate while surfing and was very intrigued by the comments about how there is no conflict between religion and science. This is absolutely, categorically TRUE. Atheism (the belief that there is no god) is just as much a faith based world view as any religion. There is absolutely nothing in our wealth of scientific knowledge that can either prove or disprove the existence of god. The scientific method will never be able to answer the question. The two subjects are not related in any way.

Even if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a phenomenon exists "at random", that still does not prove that god is not behind the "randomness". Atheism and randomness are not the same thing. To say that by reducing the evolution of life to the basic laws of chemistry and physics proves that god is not involved is retarded. How can you prove that god did not create the basic laws of chemistry and physics? Atheists imposing their worldview on evolution is just as wrong as fundie neo-cons putting ID in the science classroom.

The beauty and also limitation of the scientific method is that we can only study the mechanisms of the physical universe; i.e. "how" things happen. "Why" is a completely different question and belongs in philosophy or religion class.

FreeThinker said...

Of course "God" can not be proved or disproved. But you can assign a probability to it. I think Bigfoot is more likely to exist than a god. But I will say I do not believe in either.

PS ~ Check out my latest post on ID.

Anonymous said...

All of the above posts have made excellent points re the so-called "cre/id" debate (or debacle, depending on how you look at it). So I'll focus my input on aspects that I feel have been insufficiently accentuated.

Most importantly, I think it's useful to distinguish between the scientific analysis/discussion of the possibility (e.g., potential scientific legitimacy) of an intelligent-design theory, on the one hand, versus the strong religio/politico-motivated movement that we currently see afoot for promoting ID to an equal plane of legitimacy as other well-accepted science (and, as the intended corollary, therefore "demanding the right" to be taught on an equal footing as other well-established science (say, evolution and cosmology) in our public schools. I firmly believe that the latter is a religion-based political movement. By and large, the prominent (and well funded, I might add) expounders of the current ID movement were at one time (not so long ago) what you might call diehard crackerjack-creationists (e.g., believing that a WASP/WASC God more or less snapped his/her fingers, there was a crackling sound, and out popped the universe and its inhabitants in all their current variety and complexity). Many of these folks have come to the realization that the crackerjack strict-creationis metaphor truly is untenable given modern scientific knowledge; we should give them credit for finally "coming around" to a more scientifically based position. But, being still religious in nature, some of these folks have latched onto ID as the latest work-around (and as duly noted above, the latest marketing scheme as well).

Forgetting the marketing aspect for a moment (even though it has *everything* to do with the current attempt to inject it into school curricula), let's focus on what the IDists believe, and why. We can easily see that for these folks, adopting the ID philosophy/theory (and, I think it is more of a philosophy than a theory, as it is probably untestable as a scientific theory - in spite of one suggestion to do so in the abobe posts, which I deem infeasible due to the extreme computation complexity of the computer-simulation task)is the perfect solution to their quandary. It allows to update their thinking to be more or less compatible with modern science, and yet rationally maintain their religious belief in a God that "cares" about them and who is "active" in the current and past (at issue here) affairs of the universe. Some may view this as a last-ditch effort to save a religious belief that is inherently "bad" in some sense, and should be given up (although, for the most part, those making that accusation are themselves strong believers in their own religion-of-sorts, be it atheism or naturalism). So be it. I say good for them - it is a good thing to be able to reconcile one's science with one's religion. And such a reconciliation is something that most fundamental-right-wing Christians have lacked for some time - at least those who have clung to crackerjack-creationism.

Where I think they go too far is their well-funded and well-publicized attempt to rapidly promote a relatively new idea to equal prominence with scientific evolution theory (in the good sense of the term) in our education system. Historically, ideas need to compete in the marketplace for some time, and "earn" the right of consideration on an equal plane (or whatever relative standing is eventually achieved). We should not just teach a philosophy because a conservative President says so, or a well-heeled media campaigne is mounted to do so. It is all too clear that the ID lobbyists have the cart before the horse. Their thinly veiled strategy is to promote religion by having a theory taught in science classes that specifically brings up the idea that the universe and the living things in it are so complex that there must have been some sort of intelligent designer-of-sorts - and if there was some "thing" that dis the designing, well one might as well call that thing god, shouldn't we (and by the way, please line up to the left for baptism, and to the right for communion, and sign up at the principal's office for the catechism elective course held after school).

In spite of my obbvious cynicism for the eager way that a small number of hyper-religiated folks are jumping on the ID bandwagon as the obvious latest/greatest way to salvage religion, and at the same time get it in front of the maximum number of viewing eyes (Niellson Ratings for the various scientific "programs" taught in high school science classes, anyone?) - we should also note that many of those railing against the idea of teaching ID in science class are equally politically and religiously motivated - just in the opposite direction. They are just as fervent about stamping out organized religion - by never giving it a platform from which to mount an offensive, at least not on my tax dollar, thank you kindly - as the ID propounders are to leverage this potential crack in the system to toss out religious ideas and discussions by means of raising a scientific (or pseudo-scientific, some would say) issue within the context of scientific education.

However, thus far we have largely ignored the little bit of science underlying the heated ID
"debate" in the first place - namely the actual scientific research on intelligent design. There is such a thing, you know - it is not all just smoke and mirrors - even though it might seem so in light of the stampeding religious-right ID-promoters wielding mirrors to deflect the discussion off from the underlying science and onto the listener's emotions and religious/political feelings. There are actually a small number of well respected scientists who are at least interested in the ID philosophy. Of course, the gamut among scientists ranges from those who firmly "believe" in ID (remember, we postulate that it is currently untestable as a scientific theory, so that one can at best believe in it as a philosophy that very much helps to explain certain underlying principles of the universe), to those who think that there either may or may not be an underlying intelligent design behind the universes' science, to those who are outspokenly against it. Many of the former category might happen to be Christians (or of some other formal religious persuasion), but not all. Many of the latter might happen to be avowed atheists (such as physicist Steve Weinberg, for instance), but again, not all. However, currently, the number of true scientists that are taking the ID philosophy seriously is extremely small. The large attention that ID is currently getting is not due to the large number of researchers or large number of published journal papers (which indeed is miniscule), but rather all due to the religious folks adopting ID as its thoroughly modern saviour (minus trappings of the cross, etc.) against the hordes of infidels who (in their opinion), under the guise of constitutionally established freedom-of-religion, currently actually have full reign to promulgate the "default" religion of atheism in our public schools.

Nevertheless, we should not be too quick to throw out the scientific baby with the religious-ferver bathwater. Research into the "scientific theory aspect of intelligent design" (if I might coin a phrase to distinguish it from the religio/politico-scandal surrounding it) is actually a legitimate scientific enterprise, in spite of what those opposed to ID (largely on religious/political grounds as well) might want you to believe. True, we have well acknowledged that ID is probably not now, nor ever will be, subject to verification/falsification according to well-established scientific methods. But that is not grounds for dismissal per se. Just because we must currently, and probably will always, need to regard ID as more of a scientific philosophy than a true scientific theory, that should not void it from the realm of true scientific discussion and research to the extent possible (and yes, maybe it should even be allowed within the realm of student discussion in science education, maybe some day when better understood, although it's probably not ready for prime time yet on scientific reasons not emotional ones).

The best way to understand why it should be considered OK to do "scientific research" in the ID field even though we think that no fully conclusive results can be obtained is by analogy with two similar research fields that are definitively considered scientific, namely quantum physics string theory and biological evolution. String theory (or the related brane theory of M-Theory) proposes, in the most publicized variant, that the universe actually has ten dimensions rather than the standard four spacetime dimensions. The other six dimensions are supposedly so microscopic, as well as rolled up on themsleves, that it is essentially inconceivable that we will ever be able to conduct physical scientific experiments that will observe anything existing in those dimensions. As such, string theory is one of the first well-respected scientific theories that is, due to its very essence, scientifically untestable. Yet, it is now one of the most active areas of physics research. How can this be so? Well, first of all, most of the research is of a theoretical nature, not experimental. This is convenient for the researchers, since on paper at least, they can probably maintain their research funding indefinitely, as they are not in danger of anyone proving their theory any time soon (such that they would have to pack up their bags and move on to some other area of research). However, we do cling to some microscopic probability that someone may eventually generate experimental science that will lend credence to string theory - likey by means of indirect, not direct, evidence. In short, we consider string theory to be good science at this point in scientific history. This was not always the case. String theory was ridiculed for a long time as the brainchild of a couple extremely brilliant scientists, which no one understood and thus assumed that since they (being bright scientists) could not understand it, it must be wacko. It took 30 years or so, a scientific generation, for it to become a popular research topic. Intelligent design, as a scientific (or science-philosophic) theory, is presently at the point that string theory was at 30 years ago. Thus, it might yet find scientific respectability at some time in the future. Let's not reject it out of hand like the Church did Galileo's science. Interestingly, if in a thought experiment we were to roll the clock back 30 years and imagine that a vocal religio-politico-motivated minority were stongly lobbying for the teaching of string theory in high school science classes alongside Newton's non-relatavistic physics, we see that such an idea would be considered ludicrous - but that the arguments would centered around the facts that (a) high school students were way to scientifically immature to understand the issues of string theory because the arguments are so complicated and demand such a high level of mathematical sophistication, (b) even if approved for study, there would not be available immediately (or ever, for that matter) enough qualified science instructors schooled in the principles of string theory so as to teach it properly, and (c) the simple matter that string theory was so new that it was way too early to incorporate it into low-level science education. Of course, if in our thought experiment there were some way for religious fundamentalists to rescue their out-of-date variant of religious faith from the onslaught of increasingly incompatible scientific evidence, by means of showing how string theory provides an open door for a God who is a creator (of strings, say), then probably there would have been a big push 30 years ago for putting string theory into the curriculum, as ridiculous as that would be from a practical perspective. [But, carrying the thought experiment even further, I submit: would that have been such a bad thing? True, it would have been the curse of many a student, but the overall scientific literacy of American students would have been enhanced as a result, instead of the current situation where we have the most scientifically illiterate students in the civilized world.]

The other example I alluded to is evolution itself. As pointed out, we can never now the complete details of the actual history of evolution since the fossil evidence is sparce. Yet, we understand enough about biology, genetics, and now the actual genome, that we think we can envision what happend with evolution at least in general terms. That's enough to make its study a science by all standards, except maybe the crackerjack-creationists, who have an axe to grind in questioning the available evolution evidence. So, having shown two examples of how we allow and encourage scientific research within two different fields in which there is seemingly no hope to ever come to conclusive results in terms of the classical scientific method, I think that we should respect and not ridicule those scientists who attempt to conduct research in and around the area of intelligent design.

Also, I want to add three comments about the nature of ID research (two scientific comments and one theological). First, we should be vigilant to understand that ID research theories are NOT in some way opposed to the scientific concept of biological evolution. In fact, ID (in its most logical pronouncements, anyway) fully adopts biological evolution as one of its key components. This can be a bit confusing for those of us used to discussing these issues based on emotional/religious/political grounds rather than scientific grounds. The trouble is that in the recent past, the religious aspect of the battleground has been construed as being between creationists and evolutionists, who were at odds - with the creationists seen by impartial observers as being religious zealots out of touch with science, and the evolutionists seen from some quarters as zealous atheists trying to leverage scant scientific evidence in favor of atheism. With the onset of ID science research by a scant few true scientists, and the mass jump on the ID bandwagon by fromer crackerjack-creationists, there is a complete sea change in the beliefs of one camp involved in the battle (which itself has not changed much). Former strict creationists have (reluctantly, in some cases) switched to actual proponents of evolutionism, albeit an evolution somehow directed by God behind the scenes. Their underlying motivations may still be the same, but let's be sure that we understand that the fight about evolution per se is all but over, with both camps agreeing on it, but agreeing to disagree un some underlying philosophical and religious issues as to whether or not some intelligent mechanism helped to guide the evolution toward the complexity seen in moders species, including us.

Second, we should be clear that the evidence for, and pertinent research areas of, intelligent design do not lie only within evolution or other biological fields. Indeed, much of the evidence lies within physics and cosmology, not biology. And arguably, the physics-based ID issues are more fundamental than the biological ones, since without physics behaving as it does, there would be no physical playground upon which biology could operate and do its evolving. The fundamental issues have to do with the fact that there are a handful of physical properties of the universe and its contents and forces that operate within it, which turn out to be perfectly tuned so that everything works out just fine for purposes of allowing matter to exist in the first place, allowing galaxies to form, allowing stars to form within galaxies and be of the proper nuclear chemistry so as to develop higher numbered chemical elements such as carbon and oxygen and smaller amounts of metals and trace elements that have proved essential in forming animate beings, etc. A lot of this involves a small number of physical constants and their actual magnitudes, which in some cases is so critical that a deviation of one part in millions from the actual values would be a deal breaker in terms of the universe's existence in the form that we know it, and/or the ability of life forms to develop within it. These factoids form much of the basis for the scientific issues underlying the ID concept. Think of the following hypothetical (but not practical) thought experiment. Suppose we develop a computerized "universe-creation simulation kit" consisting of a CD containing the proper program that will simulate the evolution of a universe given the input of proposed values for a number of the relevant constants and other parameters that we know have had such a profound effect in the context of the real universe; together with a GUI screen that allows the user to input his chosen values for these parameters. Now we produce about 4 billion copies of this simulator and distribute them to every human on the planet old enough to reasonably well operate a personal computer, with instructions for them to run the program, pick their values for the relevant parameters (on whatever basis they choose, whether by coin flipping or astrology or girlfriend's birthday), enter them into the program and let he simulation run. At the end, the simulation results in one of two results: either it reports back "your universe is bust" - meaning that conditions were proved via simulation not to be compatible with life; or it reports back "congratulations, your choice resulted in the development of a universe very similar to our own in which a very human-like intelligent species of animal evolved (along with other lesser species) to the point that they developed science and technology and creature comforts similar to their own." In the latter case, you would be considered to have won the jackpot in this contest. Well, the truth is that if such a hypothetical contest were run, no won would win the contest. the probability of picking workable parameters is so incredibly small that even if there were billions of contestants, the likely of a winner is miniscule. And, I might add, of the components of the probability that are significant, those components having to do with evolution itself are probably only a very small part of the picture numerically. The tougher probabilistic hurdles lie in the basic physics of the universe and how its physical laws operate, and then too the particular details of the big bang or whatever cosmology happens to have happened, and then comes the factors related to the improbability of the evolution of such complex species such as ourselves. So, the ID theorists in a nutshell muse, "Wow, this whole thing is so improbable and fantastic, and yet we know it actually happened, so how could that be? Maybe there was some intelligent guiding force, so to speak, that guided the selection of physical constants and theories to the end of the untimate evolution of an intelligent species that could ponder the significance of all of this, including themselves?" And of course, no one knows what such an "intelligent guiding force" might be, since we've never encountered one face to face - so that leaves the door open for religiously minded folks to say, gee whiz, that ID guiding force just might be the same God that I've believed in all along - it certainly fits the bill, since I really don't understand the concept of God all that much either. And, from that point forward, all hell breaks loose (pardon the pun) when the religious folks immediately start to coopt and leverage an intelligent design scientific theory that they don't even understand for the most part, and which is so new that it has barely been cogently proposed in one place in a coherent and consistent manner. Not since Copernicus and Galileo proposed that the earth revoles around the sun has a mostly scientific question been immediately embroiled in religious controversy before it even had time to sort itself out on scientific grounds. It took centuries before the Copernican theory was first accepted, and then shown to be moot in light of research by Mach and others culminating in Einsteins formulation of a new form of relativity that showed in hindsight that it machts nichts whether you view the earth as going around the sun or vice versa, as long as you use the proper math to accomodate the correct physical theory. I strongly suspect that in the long run a similar result will be obtained for intelligent design theories. One will in the long run be free to believe whatever one likes - either a really freaky, almost statistically impossible thing happened in the forming of the universe and its physical laws and constants and the subsequent use of those laws in the creation of complex carbon-based chemicals that evolved to amino acides then proteins then primitive life forms then advanced life forms then extremely intelligent life forms that are intelligent enough to comprehend all this; or some sort of natural intelligent "guiding force" of some sort (for lack of a better term) came into play and helped the statistically impossible become the probability-one inevitable, namely the universe and life forms that actually happened - but in this case the believer holds these forces to be wholly natural and scientifically explainable and of no religious significance whatsoever; or one might just latch onto the ID guiding force and closely associate it with some sort of non-material entity, namely a god of some sort - which is the tack conveniently taken by the current ID hangers-on. Unfortunately, with all the commotion, the latter form of ID is what is getting all the attention, when we should really be focusing more on the science behind the ID idea. I will say this much - if indeed the religiously motivated ID supporters hold sway and get some sort of attention placed on ID within curricular, well maybe at least that might inspire one person in a hundred to go into pure science as a career; and possibly inspire inspire one person out of a hundred-thousand to go into string theory research; and maybe even inspire one person out of a million to go into *scientfic intelligent design* research.

My last point is a theological one. I find it somewhat ironic, yet demonstrably easy to show, that a modern theological/historical reading of the pertinent Biblical passages in Genesis, for instance, is very compatible the currently acceptable scientific account of the development of the universe and its occupants. Specifically, there are events described in Genesis that are wholly compatible with a big bang cosmological theory plus an evolutionary biological theory - albeit one that is guided by the God of the Bible. That is, some would say that God chose cosmology and physics and biological evolution as the platforms by which to manifest his power of creation. There have been a couple of recent good books that have looked at this from a theological perspective, and my own brother has been researching this area a lot lately, which is why it has rubbed off on me. One of the basic motivations of folks like my brother for advancing a theology that is compatible with both physics and cosmology and evolutionary biology is that there has in the past been a large amount of embarassment of modern-thinking Christians by the seemingly stupid and stubborn "creationists," by which I mean strict crackerjack-creationists. I come from a religious background myself, and quite frankly, it is a huge embarassment. To my way of thinking, whatever money those of the Christian faith are spending on evanglelism, be it abroad or at home, has largely been nullified by the bad press obtained by crackerjack-creationists. How can anybody be expected to convert to a religion that is so closely associated with a bunch of loudmouth idiots that don't respect science. So, to my way of thinking, the new phenomenon of the adopotion of the somewhat respectable intelligent design evolutionary theory in place of "crackerjack-creation theory" as the modus operandi of how, in their minds, God "created" the universe and us in it, is much more scientifically believable and therefore respectable. Much of the embarassment-by-association could be gone if the last of the crackerjacks switched to ID. So, the trend toward believe in ID is, overall, I'd say a good thing, at least with respect to its impact in religious circles (even if the science is still tentative and subject to much debate). However, as I see it the big problem is that to a certain extent it is the same vocal religious folks who yesterday were saying that creation was a crock of BS and that in reality god did a snap-crackle-pop number, who are now vocally espousing the ID concept and trying to forcefully inject it into areas where it is probably not wanted and probably doesn't belong (at least not until a better develop scientific ID theory exists so that one might hope to actually teach it in a credible manner). This tactic is easily recognized by those opposed to religion as a bait-and-switch tactic for promoting religion by first garnering the scientific stage upon which to mount the sermon, rather than an innocuous attempt at intellectual freedom in the schools. And guess what? As a person from a religious background, I'm still embarassed! I shouldn't have to be anymore, but yet I am. If the ID propagandizers would just shut their traps and go about there busines of quietly believing in ID in lieu of crackerjack, there would be no reason for embarassment. In fact, to the extent that they quietly got the word out that they're no longer crackers, but now IDers, well at least atheists and naturalists would lose an easy mark for ridicule of Christians that they had before (and still do have at the moment, since there are still more crackerjack-creationists than IDers around).

So I propose a compromise. Would it be so bad to put approximately one to two paragraphs into the high-school science books about intelligent design? But I would not put it into the biology section - first because some folks might ignorantly assume that "see, my science book says that evolution might be wrong after all," but also because I believe that any evidence for ID is more strongly within the realms of physics and cosmology. Certainly, we need to have a section in the physical science textbooks that discusses the overwhelming improbability of the existence of a universe like the one we actually have, and some of the ideas folks have had about coming to grips with that. Something like, "Recently there have been some controversial ideas put for the purpose of explaining the actual existence of the overwhelmingly improbable conditions that exist in the universe that have allowed the workable physics that we actually have, and the tiny bit of hospitable real estate called Earth that does exist among the billions of inhospitibale places, and the conditions suitable such that not only life, but intelligent life could evolve on Earth. Some physicists believe in the idea of parallel universes, in two variants. Although one variant has to do with explaining quantum uncertainty by means of supposing that the universe branches at every quantum decision point, that is not the one we refer to here. Rather, some cosmologists believe that there may be an infinite or almost infinite number of actual separate universes, each of which has different physical constants and thus differently acting physical theories; and that this large multiverse offsets the infinitessimally small probability of a universe hospitable to life with the infinitely large number of "attempted universes" of which quite possibly ony one (our own) is amenable to evolution of intelligent life forms. Others espouse the similarly radical theory known by the name of "intelligent design (ID)." Under ID theory, there exists some sort of intelligent guiding force that has influenced the selection of physical constants and physical law, and possibly the specific cosmological evolution of the matter within the (single in this case) universe such that the conditions are ripe for the eventual evolution of and incredibly large number of incredibly complex life forms, including intelligent species such as Humans. Among the ID espousers, there is wide disagreement about what might comprise such an "intelligent design force." Many of a religious persuasion are inclined to believe that such an intelligent designer might possibly be one and the same as the god of their particular religion. Others believe in alternate explanations that are wholly naturalistic and contain no religious overtones whatsoever. Therefore, even if one believes in the ID paradigm, it is not necessary for one to believe in a religous god as designer, although some do choose to believe this. These issues tug at the boundary between science and religion and philosophy, and are interesting to ponder, but are believed to be largely unprovable via purely scienific methods. ... " Such a brief discussion, especially in the context of physics and cosmology and not the seemingly more controversial E-word (evolution), make great good sense, help encourage an awe and wondering about the universe without trying to establish any religion. This would be acceptable to me, at least. What would not be acceptable would be the biology section having a five page chapter on evolution, followed immediately by a five page chapter on intelligent design, in sort of a point-counterpoint manner - not only because the ID concept has not been sufficiently researched to warrant such equal treatment, but more importantly because one could not go on and on for five pages in a supposed science article on intelligent design without incorporated a lot of religious junk in there as filler. And of course, the ID proponents that we currently see on the rampage would not doubt demand from their state legislators that their "team" be put on the committee to write the ID textbook section, so they would probably get their proselytizing in there somewhere.

In summary:
Good ID = ongoing scientific and philosophical research on the complexity of the universe and how it came to be, including the potential of modalities that incorporate some intelligent design mechanism.
Bad ID = cancerous, press-hogging, emotion-appealing, well-funded political lobbying that is currently going on in and effort to forcefully inject ID into public schools; which is tantamount to them flying a thirty-foot pirate Christian flag on a tiny ten-foot scientific research vessel that was commandeered for their own religious purposes from the few legitimate scientist who were attempting to sail the research vessel in the seas of Good ID.

In conclusion, I suggest that the Bad ID promulgators just shut up and drop the issue; and instead, why don't they focus on getting good quality, fairly written textbooks incorporating ID as a pertinent componen, which might be used in the context of private Christian-associated-and-funded prep schools and colleges.

Charles Darwin said...

Well that certainly did get a few fingers excited.

On a side note, the UK was not insubstantial in its involvement to decode the human genome. Not that any chimpanzees gave a monkey's…

Anonymous said...

Let me see if I understand the logic of IDers: "Scientists haven't yet figured out all the processes of the universe, therefore there must be a God."

Anonymous said...

Thank you for allaying my fears...not all of the world has gone mad, and there are people out there that view this Intelligent Design bull with the same level of ire as I have. ID is a time reversal to the Middle Ages, and if these ID idiots believe that Evolution is "just a theory" then let them relinquish all control over devices and conveniences that have resulted from like "just theories", like Relativity and Quantum theory...turn off your computers, your cell phones, flash-card cameras (yes, all products of "just theories") and go live in a cave, while the rest of us strive to better our world through the use of reason.

Anonymous said...

I follow the money...when all else fails, consider an possible M.O....
I am unaware of a single paleontologist who's a millionaire, but plenty of fundamental televangelists are...also, I am unaware of having read a single book on Evolution or watched a single show on the Discovery Channel that concluded with, "...and that is why we should support a woman's right to choose, or vote for John Kerry." And yet,religious bestsellers and cable programming are thick with the "...and that is why we should support the State of Israel and continue to vote Republican" patter. When all else is equal,go with the guy willing to deny himself for truth, not the guy in bed with Money and Power...

Anonymous said...

Great discussion. You guys definitely seem to have a lot of passion and emotion invested in this topic. Unfortunately, I think that’s what’s getting in the way of a good, objective discussion on the topic of God and science. Too many folks have too much baggage and have bought into too much ideology hand-fed to them by the establishment on the left and the right that they don’t really think, they just say “FACT!”, “LIE!”, whatever. The data is out there. Everyone is able to explore it and come to their own conclusions. I used to be an atheist, a staunch evolutionist, and a born-again naturalist (I had grown up in the Bible belt, and resented anything smelling of religion upon exiting). But after a while, I realized that there were a lot of questions that evolution and naturalism just could not answer. Instead, they come up with more unproven theories, scared to death to actually face a data-point that could point to a higher power. Punctuated Equilibrium is a great one. Yeah, that makes sense. I find it incredulous that scientists taut the Law of Causaulity and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, cornerstones of their disciplines, but then staunchly stand behind THEORIES that totally contradict these laws, because that have agreed beforehand that any data that could possibly indicate a higher power needs to be cast out. Question – explain to me, with a straight face, in your most scientific vernacular, how there be NOTHING, then SOMETHING? Where did the energy come from? What is science’s answer? (crickets start chirping here…).

Explain to me, with your most condescending “I’m talking to one of those mindless zealot” tones, how tiny, yet intricate machine like flagella within mitochondria “evolved” from the primordial soup (Darwin, by the way, had no CLUE what was inside a cell… he thought it was a lifeless lump of protoplasm… since the discovery of the inner workings of the cell, Darwinists have yet to offer any credible explanations for the origins of those micro-mechanisms…). Also, help me to understand how a bombardier beetle would “evolve” two separate glands, that produce two separate chemicals, that – only when combined – produce a defense mechanism akin to a miniature flame thrower… oh yeah, it also had to independently “evolve” a reinforced abdomen to not explode when these come into contact with one another. Each of these had to come about independently, and each had to provide some sort of survival advantage on their own to stick around – explain to me how that happened in your own words. Please don’t post links – that’s lame and passing the buck. Prove that YOU understand it and believe it. My bet is that whatever explanation you offer, regardless of who pawned it to you, once you really think about it and consider the odds, will require just as much faith to believe as that needed to believe in God.

Micro-evolution via “natural selection” is an explanation of how creatures adapt to their environments without becoming a new species. This is scientifically observable, and is supported by the “evolution” camp and many in the “intelligent design” camp. Macroevolution, the larger theory explaining how lifeless molecules magically came alive, eventually becoming humans, is an unproven theory. Unfortunately, the bulk of society has been fooled into thinking the former proves the latter, which is a critical mistake in logic.

Obviously, many objections to the teaching of alternative views of human origin, are based on the motive of keeping public education free from religion. Webster’s states that “religion” is: “A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.” Many also define it as a belief system that requires an act of faith. There is an irrefutable lack of evidence for macroevolution. Additionally, evolutionist totally ignore odds. It was Dr. Emile Borel who first formulated the basic Law of Probability which states that the occurrence of an event where the chances are beyond 1 chance in 1050(the 200th power is used for scientific calculations), is an event which we can state with certainty will never happen, regardless of the time allotted or how many opportunities could exist for the event to take place.(Emile Borel, Probabilities and Life, Dover 1962, chapters 1-3)
The mathematical probability of a single living cell arising spontaneously has been calculated over and over again by evolutionary scientists and they have been unable to come up with a figure which falls under Borel's upper limit. See the work of Dr. Frank Salisbury, Dr. George Wald, Dr. Harold Morowitz to name just a few and you will understand why probability work has all but ceased by evolutionary scientists. Evolution fairs badly in the light of probability considerations. These considerations played a larger role in changing Astronomer and Physicist Sir Fred Hoyle from his belief in a purely evolutionary origin of life to believing in a Creator. Hoyle calculated the chance that life could have evolved spontaneously to be 1 chance in 1040,000. This number is far larger than Borel's upper limit and makes the supposed spontaneous origin of life nothing short of a miracle!(See - Evolution from Space, Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe,J. M. Dent & Sons, 1981, p. 130). But naturalists tend to glance over things like this and credit some totally unproven NEW theory that then proliferates all of the schoolbooks as FACT, and so on… yeah, that’s a good way to prepare young minds for the world ahead. When something doesn’t work, let’s make up something new and call it FACT! At least they’ll have promising careers politics…

Based on the evidence, macroevolution requires a leap of faith to truly believe, qualifying it as a religion. Teaching it as the only answer to the human origin question should be deemed unconstitutional as well. Or, if you are truly confident the theory can withstand true scrutiny – teach the flaws as well… instead of littering biology books with various “proof-points” that were discredited decades ago. Oops, cannot do that. Gotta’ tow the party line.

Science should be guided by evidence rather than prejudging the answer due to one’s particular philosophy. Along with credible competing views, I actually feel more should be taught about the evolutionary view of our origins – particularly the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record, the lack of explanation for cellular development or independent yet interdependent biological organs, or the odds of it even occurring. A growing number of scientists have publicly stated their skepticism about the ability of evolution to explain the diversity of life, and they now promote design theory as tool to arrive at more logical answers. Design theory is a well-established form of scientific inquiry used by archaeologists, forensic scientists, and astronomers to understand if something occurred naturally or was “designed” by an intelligent being. This tested mode of scientific analysis has led many to believe that there is undeniable evidence of a “designer” involved in the creation of life. Why refuse to allow this logically deduced alternative theory into the discussion regarding our origins? The reason, I feel, is not about a desire to present the truth – it is more about what we have already decided to believe, or what we have decided we want our children to believe. If there is a God, and he actually expects something from us, that could be pretty inconvenient for a lot of folks…

At the end of the Origin of the Species, Charles Darwin, the high-priest in the church of evolution wrote: “I look with confidence to the future, to young and rising naturalists, who will be able to view both sides of the question with impartiality.” Ironically, I would bet that Charles Darwin would be extremely concerned about the one-sided misrepresentation of the facts currently being force-fed to our young people. I hope we can keep all of this in mind as we listen to the ideologues who label anyone who challenges evolution as being “closed minded” or uneducated. At least some of us do our homework and can actually FAIRLY present the facts, instead of hurling insults.

Roger C

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Roger C:

Excellent post. However, as much as you want to toss around some very nice shadings of how ID could work:

a.) The shiny version you're presenting's not the version being presented as the model we're asked to judge and

b.) Not testable. No predictions. i.e. Not science. Period. No original hypothesis other than "evolution doesn't completely explain this, therefore we can LEAP to an intelligent designer to fill in the gap." Theology, maybe. Even TRUE, maybe. But not science.

c.) all the fine detail evolutionary adaptations you're describing as proof can be explained by ... evolution. The macro vs. micro evolution trope is a common one, and I can only point you to someone like, say, PZ Meyers to see it dealt with on a scientific basis.

This is the fundamental problem. If the complexity of the universe leads you in some way to believe in God, that's great. But to make the jump that we must then use God in order to explain the complexity of the universe ... that's just bad logic. And really bad science.

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I really think my Republican friends are on to something with this whole "teach the controversy" concept. I urge them to adjust their Bible study curriculum and "teach the controversy" concerning whether Jesus was really the son of God, as Christians believe, or whether he was simply a prophet, as Jews believe. After all, it is important that our children understand both sides of the issue so they can make an informed decision, right?

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teenages going wild -
teencore zine -
teen dirt bags -
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teens natural way -
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granny got laid -
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little teen suckers -
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Anonymous said...

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lucy summers -
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mega penetrations -
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messy gangbangs -
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monstrous melons -
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sexy preggo sluts -
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superb teen snatch -
taco twats -
tasteless toons -
teach my ass -
teenages going wild -
teencore zine -
teen dirt bags -
teens go porn -
teens natural way -
teens try anal -
teens want orgies -
teen thrills -
terri summers -
tiffany towers -
tranny bangin -
tranny treats -
try teens -
tug job queens -
twinks from the hood -
two cocks one box -
victoria redd -
voluptuous -
we need new talents -
white bitch bangin -
white pussy black cocks -
white teens black cocks -
wild latina girls -
wild solos -
xl girls -
young stacy -
young throats -
18 eighteen -
40 something mag -
adult associate -
adult movie network -
adult video network -
adult xxx pornstars -
amateurs gone bad -
anal sex lessons -
anita dark -
asian cream -
autumn jade -
banged by a gang -
banging machines -
bangkok bangers -
beijing beavers -
big betty bangin -
big bush beavers -
big cock bangers -
big tit buffet -
big tit invasion -
bisexual bangers -
bitchin movies -
bobbi eden -
booty licious mag -
bound and banged -
brooke skye -
brown sugar sluts -
burrito bitches -
busty angelique -
busty dusty stash -
busty ines cudna -
busty kelly kay -
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cash strapped teens -
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college fuck tour -
college party time -
colossal cumshots -
corn hole cruisers -
crazy club chicks -
cream filled holes -
cream of cunt -
crissy moran -
cum filled throat -
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cum swapping bitches -
cum swapping twinks -
curious hunks -
cute halle -
desiraes world -
dick sucking dudes -
digi dolls -
dirty babysitter -
double dong divas -
double team suckers -
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drunk sex orgy -
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filthy toon fuckers -
flabby females -
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gangbanged girls -
gangbang lessons -
gangland victims -
gay blowjob auditions -
gay closet movies -
gay jerk off auditions -
gay men galore -
girls got cream -
glamour models gone bad -
granny got laid -
granny parts -
gushing gashes -
guys go crazy -
handjob lessons -
hardcore sweethearts -
heather wild -
hefty humpers -
he has tits -
hentai humpers -
hentai hussies -
his first threesome -
horny teen harlots -
huge dicks little chicks -
huge tit whores -
interracial intercourse -
jesse capelli -
kat young -
leg sex -
lesbian lessons -
lesbian recruiters -
lesbo rama -
linseys world -
lisa a daniels -
little teen suckers -
lonnie waters -
looker girls -
lucy summers -
lusty lezzies -
massive mergers -
mature hotel -
me and my pussy -
meat stick milkers -
mega penetrations -
mega porn mall -
messy gangbangs -
milf mother fuckers -
milf munchers -
milf riders -
military fantasy -
moms need cash -
monstrous melons -
movie erotica -
my black coeds -
my latina teen -
my tranny lover -
nasty ass lickers -
natalia cruze -
naughty allie -
naughty asian nymphos -
naughty julie -
naughty little nymphs -
naughty mag -
neighbor hood nymphos -
never done that before -
nicole peters -
old fart fuckin -
party hardcore -
pepes adventures -
petite beaver -
petite pinups -
pink eye sluts -
plug 2 holes -
preggo poontang -
pure teen porn -
pussy punishers -
real and natural -
reality porn pass -
real trannies -
road gangbangs -
rug munchin -
sadistic sluts -
sarennas world -
school bus chicks -
score videos -
senior slutfest -
seventeen live -
seventeen video -
sexy preggo sluts -
shay laren -
shemale schlongs -
show me gape -
shy teachers pet -
sin cindy -
smooth snatches -
sodomy studs -
squirting snatches -
straight goes gay -
superb teen snatch -
taco twats -
tasteless toons -
teach my ass -
teenages going wild -
teencore zine -
teen dirt bags -
teens go porn -
teens natural way -
teens try anal -
teens want orgies -
teen thrills -
terri summers -
tiffany towers -
tranny bangin -
tranny treats -
try teens -
tug job queens -
twinks from the hood -
two cocks one box -
victoria redd -
voluptuous -
we need new talents -
white bitch bangin -
white pussy black cocks -
white teens black cocks -
wild latina girls -
wild solos -
xl girls -
young stacy -
young throats -
18 eighteen -
40 something mag -
adult associate -
adult movie network -
adult video network -
adult xxx pornstars -
amateurs gone bad -
anal sex lessons -
anita dark -
asian cream -
autumn jade -
banged by a gang -
banging machines -
bangkok bangers -
beijing beavers -
big betty bangin -
big bush beavers -
big cock bangers -
big tit buffet -
big tit invasion -
bisexual bangers -
bitchin movies -
bobbi eden -
booty licious mag -
bound and banged -
brooke skye -
brown sugar sluts -
burrito bitches -
busty angelique -
busty dusty stash -
busty ines cudna -
busty kelly kay -
busty kerry marie -
busty merilyn -
butt bang boys -
butt bomber -
butt fuck bonanza -
cartoon cooters -
cartoon copulations -
cash strapped teens -
chloes world -
clit lickin lesbians -
club charlie -
college fuck tour -
college party time -
colossal cumshots -
corn hole cruisers -
crazy club chicks -
cream filled holes -
cream of cunt -
crissy moran -
cum filled throat -
cum swallowing lessons -
cum swapping bitches -
cum swapping twinks -
curious hunks -
cute halle -
desiraes world -
dick sucking dudes -
digi dolls -
dirty babysitter -
double dong divas -
double team suckers -
drill her butt -
drunk sex orgy -
ebony exclusive -
ebony girls online -
facial fiasco -
faith belle -
fatty farm -
filthy feeds -
filthy toon fuckers -
flabby females -
fucked by frank -
gangbanged girls -
gangbang lessons -
gangland victims -
gay blowjob auditions -
gay closet movies -
gay jerk off auditions -
gay men galore -
girls got cream -
glamour models gone bad -
granny got laid -
granny parts -
gushing gashes -
guys go crazy -
handjob lessons -
hardcore sweethearts -
heather wild -
hefty humpers -
he has tits -
hentai humpers -
hentai hussies -
his first threesome -
horny teen harlots -
huge dicks little chicks -
huge tit whores -
interracial intercourse -
jesse capelli -
kat young -
leg sex -
lesbian lessons -
lesbian recruiters -
lesbo rama -
linseys world -
lisa a daniels -
little teen suckers -
lonnie waters -
looker girls -
lucy summers -
lusty lezzies -
massive mergers -
mature hotel -
me and my pussy -
meat stick milkers -
mega penetrations -
mega porn mall -
messy gangbangs -
milf mother fuckers -
milf munchers -
milf riders -
military fantasy -
moms need cash -
monstrous melons -
movie erotica -
my black coeds -
my latina teen -
my tranny lover -
nasty ass lickers -
natalia cruze -
naughty allie -
naughty asian nymphos -
naughty julie -
naughty little nymphs -
naughty mag -
neighbor hood nymphos -
never done that before -
nicole peters -
old fart fuckin -
party hardcore -
pepes adventures -
petite beaver -
petite pinups -
pink eye sluts -
plug 2 holes -
preggo poontang -
pure teen porn -
pussy punishers -
real and natural -
reality porn pass -
real trannies -
road gangbangs -
rug munchin -
sadistic sluts -
sarennas world -
school bus chicks -
score videos -
senior slutfest -
seventeen live -
seventeen video -
sexy preggo sluts -
shay laren -
shemale schlongs -
show me gape -
shy teachers pet -
sin cindy -
smooth snatches -
sodomy studs -
squirting snatches -
straight goes gay -
superb teen snatch -
taco twats -
tasteless toons -
teach my ass -
teenages going wild -
teencore zine -
teen dirt bags -
teens go porn -
teens natural way -
teens try anal -
teens want orgies -
teen thrills -
terri summers -
tiffany towers -
tranny bangin -
tranny treats -
try teens -
tug job queens -
twinks from the hood -
two cocks one box -
victoria redd -
voluptuous -
we need new talents -
white bitch bangin -
white pussy black cocks -
white teens black cocks -
wild latina girls -
wild solos -
xl girls -
young stacy -
young throats -
18 eighteen -
40 something mag -
adult associate -
adult movie network -
adult video network -
adult xxx pornstars -
amateurs gone bad -
anal sex lessons -
anita dark -
asian cream -
autumn jade -
banged by a gang -
banging machines -
bangkok bangers -
beijing beavers -
big betty bangin -
big bush beavers -
big cock bangers -
big tit buffet -
big tit invasion -
bisexual bangers -
bitchin movies -
bobbi eden -
booty licious mag -
bound and banged -
brooke skye -
brown sugar sluts -
burrito bitches -
busty angelique -
busty dusty stash -
busty ines cudna -
busty kelly kay -
busty kerry marie -

Anonymous said...

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club charlie -
college fuck tour -
college party time -
colossal cumshots -
corn hole cruisers -
crazy club chicks -
cream filled holes -
cream of cunt -
crissy moran -
cum filled throat -
cum swallowing lessons -
cum swapping bitches -
cum swapping twinks -
curious hunks -
cute halle -
desiraes world -
dick sucking dudes -
digi dolls -
dirty babysitter -
double dong divas -
double team suckers -
drill her butt -
drunk sex orgy -
ebony exclusive -
ebony girls online -
facial fiasco -
faith belle -
fatty farm -
filthy feeds -
filthy toon fuckers -
flabby females -
fucked by frank -
gangbanged girls -
gangbang lessons -
gangland victims -
gay blowjob auditions -
gay closet movies -
gay jerk off auditions -
gay men galore -
girls got cream -
glamour models gone bad -
granny got laid -
granny parts -
gushing gashes -
guys go crazy -
handjob lessons -
hardcore sweethearts -
heather wild -
hefty humpers -
he has tits -
hentai humpers -
hentai hussies -
his first threesome -
horny teen harlots -
huge dicks little chicks -
huge tit whores -
interracial intercourse -
jesse capelli -
kat young -
leg sex -
lesbian lessons -
lesbian recruiters -
lesbo rama -
linseys world -
lisa a daniels -
little teen suckers -
lonnie waters -
looker girls -
lucy summers -
lusty lezzies -
massive mergers -
mature hotel -
me and my pussy -
meat stick milkers -
mega penetrations -
mega porn mall -
messy gangbangs -
milf mother fuckers -
milf munchers -
milf riders -
military fantasy -
moms need cash -
monstrous melons -
movie erotica -
my black coeds -
my latina teen -
my tranny lover -
nasty ass lickers -
natalia cruze -
naughty allie -
naughty asian nymphos -
naughty julie -
naughty little nymphs -
naughty mag -
neighbor hood nymphos -
never done that before -
nicole peters -
old fart fuckin -
party hardcore -
pepes adventures -
petite beaver -
petite pinups -
pink eye sluts -
plug 2 holes -
preggo poontang -
pure teen porn -
pussy punishers -
real and natural -
reality porn pass -
real trannies -
road gangbangs -
rug munchin -
sadistic sluts -
sarennas world -
school bus chicks -
score videos -
senior slutfest -
seventeen live -
seventeen video -
sexy preggo sluts -
shay laren -
shemale schlongs -
show me gape -
shy teachers pet -
sin cindy -
smooth snatches -
sodomy studs -
squirting snatches -
straight goes gay -
superb teen snatch -
taco twats -
tasteless toons -
teach my ass -
teenages going wild -
teencore zine -
teen dirt bags -
teens go porn -
teens natural way -
teens try anal -
teens want orgies -
teen thrills -
terri summers -
tiffany towers -
tranny bangin -
tranny treats -
try teens -
tug job queens -
twinks from the hood -
two cocks one box -
victoria redd -
voluptuous -
we need new talents -
white bitch bangin -
white pussy black cocks -
white teens black cocks -
wild latina girls -
wild solos -
xl girls -
young stacy -
young throats -
18 eighteen -
40 something mag -
adult associate -
adult movie network -
adult video network -
adult xxx pornstars -
amateurs gone bad -
anal sex lessons -
anita dark -
asian cream -
autumn jade -
banged by a gang -
banging machines -
bangkok bangers -
beijing beavers -
big betty bangin -
big bush beavers -
big cock bangers -
big tit buffet -
big tit invasion -
bisexual bangers -
bitchin movies -
bobbi eden -
booty licious mag -
bound and banged -
brooke skye -
brown sugar sluts -
burrito bitches -
busty angelique -
busty dusty stash -
busty ines cudna -
busty kelly kay -
busty kerry marie -
busty merilyn -
butt bang boys -
butt bomber -
butt fuck bonanza -
cartoon cooters -
cartoon copulations -
cash strapped teens -
chloes world -
clit lickin lesbians -
club charlie -
college fuck tour -
college party time -
colossal cumshots -
corn hole cruisers -
crazy club chicks -
cream filled holes -
cream of cunt -
crissy moran -
cum filled throat -
cum swallowing lessons -
cum swapping bitches -
cum swapping twinks -
curious hunks -
cute halle -
desiraes world -
dick sucking dudes -
digi dolls -
dirty babysitter -
double dong divas -
double team suckers -
drill her butt -
drunk sex orgy -
ebony exclusive -
ebony girls online -
facial fiasco -
faith belle -
fatty farm -
filthy feeds -
filthy toon fuckers -
flabby females -
fucked by frank -
gangbanged girls -
gangbang lessons -
gangland victims -
gay blowjob auditions -
gay closet movies -
gay jerk off auditions -
gay men galore -
girls got cream -
glamour models gone bad -
granny got laid -
granny parts -
gushing gashes -
guys go crazy -
handjob lessons -
hardcore sweethearts -
heather wild -
hefty humpers -
he has tits -
hentai humpers -
hentai hussies -
his first threesome -
horny teen harlots -
huge dicks little chicks -
huge tit whores -
interracial intercourse -
jesse capelli -
kat young -
leg sex -
lesbian lessons -
lesbian recruiters -
lesbo rama -
linseys world -
lisa a daniels -
little teen suckers -
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