Hold the spoilers for the comments, please.
I liked the new Bourne. But forget for a second the sliiight over-use of shaky-cam (really? the diner scene between the reporter and his source? Couldn't have locked that off?) and all you spec-monkeys feel free to gaze in wonder at what I believe is a genuine first in film screenplay history.
Yes. A genuine first. If you don't count the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead variation. When the moment popped, I actually sat there, open-mouthed.
Nested sequels. Sonovabitch.
Go watch Bourne Supremacy again right before you see the new one. I owe Tony Gilroy, Scott C. Burns, and George Nolfi a big scotch.
NOTE the first: I actually tried to do something like this on Cosby, of all things. I was, of course, mad.
NOTE the second: I had forgotten, until I looked at the IMDB page. Doug E. Doug's character name on the show, Griffin Vesey, comes by an extraordinarily circuitous path from Denmark Vesey. Sometimes we geeks on the staff have to amuse ourselves.
Tuesday, August 07, 2007
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Yeah that was pretty amazing. The entire film I was waiting for that scene to pop up. I was actually starting to think it might be the final scene of the third movie as well : )
They got me with the timeshift mislead. So I was genuinely surprised when it happened.
I saw the movie, but errr, what the heck do you mean? You can be circumspect if you don't wanna spoil it for others ... well, a little less circumspect than the original post hehe. :)
"Get some rest, Pam. You look tired."
[click!]
I saw the movie but I'm kinda lost about what you're referring to... ?
would back to the future 2 be a nested sequel?
Anon:
The first... say... 2/3? of The Bourne Ultimatum actually takes place - temporally speaking - during the last (rough guess) 15 minutes of The Bourne Supremacy.
Yeah, I noticed the timeshift right from the start, and I was happy that it WASN'T an oversight, but an actual integral part of the storyline.
Sadly, the excessive use of shaky cam completely ruined the movie for me. I kept being yanked out of the story and the great spycraft because they couldn't focus the damn camera on any one element and actually track it. Movies should be made to be watched, not to make the audience get motion sickness.
I saw Bourne Supremacy a week before Ultimatum, so it was still fresh in my mind. Personally, I thought the structure drained some of the suspense for me because right from the get go, I knew that unless they were going to pretend the Supremacy ending never happened, it would have to get back to there at some point. I spent most of the movie waiting for something I knew would happen. However, they were smart in that they built a lot of the action around what would happen to the people Bourne was with, so the film still worked for me.
I liked the movie. The hand held camera effect was beyond annoying. A little is good, but this was completely over the top to the point of being ridiculous.
So, to what extent do you think they had that in mind when they wrote Bourne II
It's a great way of maintaining the coherence of the three films. I watched it on Sunday, went home and watched I and II then went to the theatre again and watched III. (total expenditure $9, 11:50 am show and 5:00 pm show)
I also loved how much Julia Stiles did with minimal dialog and screen time.
When you watch it on DVD it will seem less shaky.
Because of it's size, the big screen makes your eyes dart back and forth, making even small movements a chore.
When you have a smaller screen your eyes can take it all in at once.
I also loved how much Julia Stiles did with minimal dialog and screen time.
The moment I loved, actually, was when she washed her hair and cut it, catching Bourne in the mirror and revealing that she and Maria had the same eyes. Between that and a previous statement, you can certainly infer a rather nice bit of structure -- they're not setting up Styles as a replacement for Maria, they're setting up that Maria was an unconscious replacement of Styles.
Yes, the structure of Bourne III was very clever and I loved how they completely changed the context of the capped from Bourne II.
However, not sure how original this is and what your qualifiers are.
Is "Back to the Future II" part of the "Rosencratz" exception, since we're technically following different characters (or, more specifically, future versions of the same characters?) and how their actions intersect the main story?
How about "Beauty and the Beast: Enchanted Christmas" - a direct to DVD sequel that takes place DURING the first film? As is, from what I understand, "Bambi II"?
So Disney's direct to DVD department has already beaten Bourne to the punch.
Clever, certainly. A first - probably not.
whoops. Meant to say "capper to Bourne II", not "capped."
it's interesting. i was really bugged by the camera work in supremacy, but not this time. for some reason (perhaps because i knew to expect it), i locked in and was able for the most part to see exactly what i believe i was supposed to in each shot (save a few of the really rapid crash sequences).
if you give up on trying to completely tell where you are in each shot and just live in it, i believe it works. it's very active viewing and i love that it makes you work to keep up.
and actually i LOVED the framing in the reporter/source scene. obscuring almost all the face in an ots shot? loved it.
I actually missed that. I saw the line, of course, but I thought in II it was to a different character, and that he made a habit of freaking people out by telling them he's watching. And I just saw II, so there's no excuse except I hadn't ever thought of such a thing.
Now I have to go see III again.
and actually i LOVED the framing in the reporter/source scene. obscuring almost all the face in an ots shot? loved it.
Oh, I loved the framing -- loved it when they did it with Styles in the Diner, too. But the shake on that first one was a bit mad.
I'd say Back 2 is indeed the Rosencrantz version, and as time travel is an explicit part of that movie's world, I'd say that's a cheat.
I didn't know the animation guys had done that. I'll still give it to BOURNE, as it's both more mainstream and also it was played, at least for me, as a surprise.
Oh for pete's sake, just come out and say it! What are you referring to? I saw Ultimatum yesterday but it's a year since I've seen Supremacy.
Are you referring to the "you look tired" scene? Is you big POP simply that he said that in both movies? (But were they not on two separate occasions, the first in Berlin [I think] and the second in NY?)
Or is the big POP just that there's some overlap in timing between the end of the Supremacy and the beginning of Ultimatum? Please be specific, yer killing me over here!
(And yes, too much shaky cam.)
It's the exact same shot, both set in New York. It's the dialogue, actually that locks it in.
The ambiguity of the first time's location, actually, I think is what makes it work as an impact point here.
Hmm, i realized that doesn't clarify things at all.
What I mean is, it's not only the same shot. it is literally the same shot. You are meant to understand that the incident in Supremacy is the one we're now seeing, from a slightly different angle in Bourne. That cascades backwards to make you understand that the bulk of ULTIMATUM did indeed occur off-screen between scenes in SUPREMACY.
Wow! I so did no get that. Now I need to see them both again, and soon!
(I can't remember the context of the "you look tired" scene in the second one, which is probably what's blocking me from getting it.)
I didn't object to the use of hand-held in that diner scene, just the way it was done. The shake was excessive to the point where you felt the operator was trying to shake the camera, rather than trying his best to keep it steady, which is what hand-held should feel like.
I KNEW it! I totally thought so, until my clever TV writer friend talked me out of it.
I KNEW it was the same scene.
Upon further research, I have discovered that the Disney "midquel" phenenomenon is quite common for their (now discontinued, thanks to Lasseter) line of Direct to DVD products.
Here's a partial list:
Beauty and the Beast II and III
Fox and the Hound 2
Bambi II
Tarzan II
I suppose this makes sense, since it allows the characters to appear as they did during the bulk of the original film, with the original relationships intact. Since many Disney stories end with profound changes (growing up, getting married, changing from Beast to Man) in the status quo by the end, these midquels make it easy to show the kids what they're familiar with.
Is Bourne more artful about it? Sure. Still don't think you can call it a "first" though.
Had I not re-watched Bourne II days before seeing III, it would have flown right over my head.
That and chud.com had casually spoiled the gimmick ahead of time in an article about the film.
i thought the connections between the two movies was brilliant. it's a little in the vein of how the original novels read. what i was most interested in was the way they were going to explain how Jason Bourne came into existence. the reasons in the novel are all based on the Vietnam War. there obviously was no reference to Vietnam in the movies.
as far as the shakiness, it's one of Paul Greengrass' usual techniques in his movies. I noticed it in the diner also and then paid no more attention.
i think Ultimatum is the best of the trilogy. i also hope that they do not do a fourth. there are fourth & fifth books written by Eric Van Lustbader entitled The Bourne Legacy and The Bourne Betrayal that was just published. Legacy was all right. i don't know anything about the new one.
I just kind of assumed they had chosen to ignore the epilogue so when they brought things home I felt satisfied. The shaky cam effect was heightened for me because I was stuck in the front row and had to literally move my head from one side of the screen to the other to try to follow the action, but I still thought it was worth it. It made things like the impact of the car chases more bone-jarring and visceral.
I also netflixed the other entires and was pleasantly surprised by all the callbacks and subtle nods to what had gone before (like the hair scene) especially the way the closing shots echoed the way the trilogy began.
Mike;
According to last month’s EMPIRE Magazine, they are very likely to continue to make further Bourne Movies.
However, both Matt Damon and Paul Greengrass have said that further involvement from themselves is very unlikely.
They can make more movies in the franchise if they want, but without Greengrass/Damon/Liman (the last of whom I believe was still an exec on the third) they're not going to be the same.
Having watched the entire trilogy this past weekend, I am even more amazed by their quality across the board. These films really are quite remarkable.
Oh, I quite agree that subsequent films are likely to be redundant, which is obviously why Damon and Greengrass are unlikely to be involved.
However, in my seasoned movie going experience, if a film is a success (as I believe the Bourne franchise is) than the studio, wishing to make money, will attempt to make more.
This isn’t coming out for awhile over here, but I’m really excited to see it.
what would you call "karate kid ii" which begins the exact second after "karate kid i" ends?
i'll be honest, i didn't remember the "you look tired" from the supremacy flick, but the time frame in ultimatum didn't confuse or astound me at all.
all good flicks.
what would you call "karate kid ii" which begins the exact second after "karate kid i" ends?
Stupid?
Oh, I quite agree that subsequent films are likely to be redundant, which is obviously why Damon and Greengrass are unlikely to be involved.
So you're saying he's unlikely to be Bourne again?
OK, somebody help me out here...
SPOILER ALERT!
BIG FAT SPOILER ALERT!
When Bourne is being indocrinated, finally cracks, and shoots the guy bound and hooded in the corner, and they pull the guy's hood off, I swear to Christ he was in one of the previous films. He looks like the guy who got his neck broken by Brian Cox for revealing in Supremacy that Bourne didn't set the bomb in Russia.
So, am I nuts or have we already seen him?
The weirdest part of the movie is that the big reveal address is a block from me.
'So you're saying he's unlikely to be Bourne again?'
I’m saying that Matt Damon is saying he’s done. The implication is, if subsequent films go ahead, it’ll be with a different actor (Bond-style.)
Dude, it was a joke... "born again". Ha ha.
Consider me in the corner, with a dunce’s cap on my head.:)
In my defence, it’s been a long day.
From my own blog:
So, okay, on Friday SuperWife and I saw two movies -- THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM and THE SIMPSONS MOVIE.
THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is just about the stupidest goddam spy thriller I have ever seen, but who cares? Yes, there are two separate sequences in the film where all a particular supporting character would have had to do to foil the evil enemy assassins is put on a frickin' hat, but never mind that. And, yes, the lead character, who has spent three films now being chased all over the universe by every CIA spy in existence, continues to refuse to even consider doing anything that would in any way alter his distinctively Matt Daimonesque features. And yes, yes, yes, there's the brain paralyzingly moronic sequence 2/3s of the way through the film where Jason Bourne manages to discover where the Enemy CIA Agent Who Is In Charge Of All Of America's Black Ops hides the Super Secret Bourne File by watching the stupid motherfucker through a telescope from across the street because the stupid motherfucker is too stupid to close his office window shades while he's walking around with a TOP SECRET file clearly marked CIA SPECIAL OPERATIONS TOP SECRET EYES ONLY in his hand.
It doesn't matter. On Earth-Jason Bourne, being a super-spy doesn't require brains, wit, guile, or cunning. All real intelligence work is done by specially brainwashed operatives intensively trained in Super Ninja Kung Fu Shit, and they don't need to know anything about disguise or being sneaky or drawing their window shades or any of that fruity crap. In the Jason Bourne universe, super spies simply kill everything that walks, runs, limps, crawls, or even just sits there blinking in terrified awe within thirty yards of them. If the CIA is mad at you, they send out the equivalent of the Hulk in natty pants to fucking DESTROY you. And this works great, too, until and unless they are stupid enough to unleash one of their immaculately barbered neo-Hulks on the greatest and most immaculately barbered neo-Hulk of them all, Jason Bourne.
In the Jason Bourne Universe, Chuck Norris is a whining puling pussy-girl who isn't worthy to polish Jason Bourne's extensive collection of slaughtered enemy skulls. In the Jason Bourne Universe, if you encounter Bourne and he isn't trying to kill you, you had better do exactly what he says the instant he says it, because if you don't (and you're too stupid to put on a hat) YOU WILL DIE!!!!! In the Jason Bourne Universe, if you are foolish enough to do anything to enrage Jason Bourne, YOU WILL ALSO DIE!!!!! Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day, soon, and then every day, for the rest of your life. Piss off Jason Bourne, and Jason Bourne will beat you half to death with the soles of his feet, thrash you nearly senseless with his precisely plucked eyebrows, whack you in the jugular over and over and over AGAIN with your own goddam leather-bound first edition copy of THE PROPHET by Kahlil Gibrain, and then kill you by thumb rubbing your larynx at exactly the precise vibrational frequency to cause your eyeballs to be sucked into your esophogus by reverse peristalsis, where they will EXPLODE WITH A FORCE EQUIVALENT TO A THOUSAND HIROSHIMAS!!!!
And he'll do it all while Julia Styles stands three feet away getting totally hot for him, too. Which he won't notice, or care about, because the hot Franke Potente chick from the first movie is still dead, goddamit, and he will mourn for her forever, even as he's inserting his foot to the ankle in some covert NSA assassin's hightly trained rectum at 345 miles per hour.
Once you understand the basic premises of any spy thriller action movie taking place in the Jason Bourne universe, everything makes perfect sense... well, except for this one sequence, where Jason Bourne breaks into the Evil CIA Guy's office and uses tape on a gun pommel to get the guy's thumb print and a tape recorder to reproduce the guy's voice and manages to unlock the guy's very sophisticated safe so he can steal all the TOP SECRET files. This seems pretty foolish to me because Jason Bourne should have just roundhouse kicked that extremely advanced safe into titanium splinters and then plucked its former contents from within its shattered ruined remnants, as easily as you or I or even Molly Ringwald would snatch a bunch of grapes off a produce display at a supermarket. But what the fuck. Maybe he was tired, or something.
For all the sheer mindless stupidity of THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM (and I should note in passing that nobody in this movie ever issues anything remotely like an ultimatum to anyone else at any time), it's enormously fun and entertaining to watch Matt Daimon running all over the Earth constantly killing everything within a fifteen foot radius of him.
I felt like there was more regressive/referential stuff than just the cut into the action.
When he trashes the police car vs. assassin SUV (in NYC), sees the guy inside all mangled, and walks away, this was exactly the same thing that happened in Russia. The scenes are not identical, but way too similar to be an accident.
The scene with Nicky cutting and dyeing her hair in the sink was the same as when Maria did it-- almost exactly.
And of course his body floating in the water at the very end-- was that not how the series began?
I saw these things, but haven't really processed them yet.
Other than the simple supposition that Bourne is crazy and we can't trust what we (or he) sees/remembers.
Wow, just saw Ultimatum yesterday, after prepping by seeing Identity and Supremacy last Saturday ... glad I stumbled across this thread, it's given me a few things to think about re. the whole time-shift/prequel/nested sequel thang.
On one level, the Bouurne flicks have been waaay fun popcorn flicks.
And I agree with everybody on the over use of the shaky cam. To communicate to the viewer the utter disorientation of being in a life-or-death fight with an equally-trained adversary, sure. But when the reporter was meeting with the source? ...
But what about the moral of the story, folks? To wit:
Never volunteer to kill unquestioningly for Caesar.
What makes the films "work" for me is that this trained killer spends all three of them struggling with his conscience, and in the end, we learn that he volunteered to be an unquestioning (read "conscience-free") killer for Caesar (the gummint of the You Ess of Ayy). Now, he obviously had to overcome his conscience. That's what the whole "Who is he?" "It doesn't matter." "What'd he do?" "It doesn't matter." exchange is all about. Well, when pushed ("Look, are you willing to do this or not?"), he caps the guy in the corner with the hood on his head. Against the judgement of his own conscience.
Conscience-Check in Identity: Killing the African on his yacht, with his children in the room, watching.
Conscience-Check in Supremacy: Neski and his wife, then framing her for murder-suicied. (He eventually has to go to the Neskis' grown-up daughter to explain the truth to her about her parents' deaths, and to tell her he's sorry.)
The ability to kill and destroy with the backing (or at the behest) of one's own government feeds a lust that must be difficult for many to resist or turn back from.
I’m saying that Matt Damon is saying he’s done.
Caught him in an interview a week or so back where he'd started moderating that to: "Well, if the writer and director come to me with something interesting to say in 10 years or so..."
Every Bourne film has defied Hollywood action film convention in one way or another. To name just a few that stood out to me, Identity had the close quarters, weaponless, fight scenes, Supremacy killed off the female lead within the first 15 minutes of the movie (bear in mind she got second billing, did the press junket and was in all the trailers), and Ultimatum basically ran the plot of the first movie in reverse and resisted the urge to make Julia Stiles the new love interest despite some conspicuous dialogue in the diner scene.
Using "Extreme Ways" by Moby after all three films was also pretty inspired in my opinion.
I'm glad I floated by this discussion. After seeing Ultimatum last weekend I kind of wondered why he was starting all the way back in Moscow again and being chased for things that happened in the second film. I also thought it was odd that the "You look tired" line was used twice. I figured he was just quoting the line he said to her previously but it makes way more sense as the same scene from Supremacy.
What impressed me most about these movies and the people behind them was their restraint. Instead of making things bigger, longer and more complicated, they kept all three movies the same 'size'. No Pirates or Spider-Man 3 syndrome here, just damn good thrillers.
That's my 2 cents.
i read the first to books and there completely different from the movie im reading the 4th a nd after that theres 2 more the bourne legacy and the bourn betrayle R those the SAME books just written by too different authors cuz he died?
i need to no im obsessed with the series though
email me @ slapshot65@comcast.net if u no
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