Tuesday, December 12, 2006

TV Fall Season - Post-game

Just updating the calls I made earlier. Your opinions and special finds should make the Comments far more interesting than the post.

BSG -- Not part of the original post, but Jesus Haploid Christ, that is some damn fine televisioning that deserves remarking upon. Consider it remarked. Watch the box sets, catch the new eps. That's how you go about the business of televising.

UGLY BETTY / STUDIO 60 / 30 ROCK -- In order: good for them, I'm still not watching/ if you think it's gotten better, you're high / Only for Baldwin, but worth it. Now, onto the essay questions.

DEXTER -- the very sales model for doing high-concept in 13 episodes. The sister character shows symptoms of irrational bitchiness usually reserved for network TV women (see JERICHO, below), but not to a fatal effect for the show. The stand-alones were all good, the meta-story is both intriguing and being closed off in a satisfactory way ... not making me giddy like LIFE ON MARS, but hey -- trust the Gene Genie. All told, a good investment of entertainment attention.

HEROES -- somehow got cheesier and better, which is no mean feat. Downside: I can not summon even the slightest interest in evil-stripper mom storyline. And that's saying something, considering anything described by the phrase "evil stripper mom" gets spotted ten yards. Upside: why yes, those are old-school cliffhangers. Why yes, you did manage to advance the meta-story in satisfying ways, consistently giving us answers without jerking us around. Bonus points -- the cheerleader can act, Glasses Guy does good ambivalent villain, Peter turned out to be much more interesting than I anticipated, and ... Hiro's. Fucking. Sword. First storyline closed off, but with some hanging threads, new storyline initiated for the winter return. Tick and tick, HEROES shows mastery of what all television will look like very soon, even if the networks are doing this new scheduling solely by accident.

JERICHO -- a conundrum. On a structural level, another excellent example of the new balance in TV. Are there big mysteries, such as "Who dropped the bomb?", "Who is the Magical Negro working for?", and "Where was Skeet Ulrich for those five years?" -- and no, not where was the actual Skeet Ulrich, I mean his character, but hey, I understand your confusion. Why yes, there are such mysteries. At the same time, each week clocks in with serial perfection. We need medicine/we find medicine. The bad guys come/we send the bad guys away. There's been a murder/we catch the murderer. Worth watching for this mastery. The web supplements are nicely done, too.

Bonus for Brad Beyer, playing Stanley, who now has a job on any show I work on, ever. What a find. They're not using him as much in conjunction with the Ulrich, as Beyer really works the "best friend you wish you had" vibe to its full extent, while Skeet's Jake doesn't seem to really deserve that kind of pal. Yet.

On the other hand, JERICHO's starting to show the seams of being on CBS. The female characters are really, really awful.

I kind of like Pamela Reed as the nosy, judgmental mom, as she's playing precisely the small-town mom who motivates you to move away. She's nails on a chalkboard, and that's a valid choice. But the best example of the sort of standard "moms/girlfriends or dysfunctional crimefighters" vibe all CBS women fall into was the ep where the Blackwater-style mercenaries were coming. While the heroic caucasian menfolk were having a stand-off on the bridge, the girlfolk were getting hammered in the bar, dreaming about one of the girls' missed wedding. Now, that's a valid storyline, but that juxtaposition was miserable. The women even comment that "something's happening". Yeah, there's a squad of heavily armed men who are going to come in here, shoot all of you in the face and take your penicillin. That's a bit distracting from mooning over the hope chest, no?

Not a single woman with a gun? Not a single Hispanic American living in KANSAS for chrissake? Meanwhile, the women have a very thin trigger on the "fly off the handle" setting. Constantly hurt, angry, resentful to well-meaning guys, except for the fun little Science Girl (GO, SCIENCE GIRL!) who suddenly disappeared for three weeks while Ulrich weaved his Skeet-alicious magic over Bad-Extensions Girl. I must give full credit to Mrs. Kung Fu Monkey for calling out this constant bullshit shrill characterization. I am generally clueless about such things, wrapped up in metastory and Beyer-crush as I am. But when you take the time to parse it out, it's a serious and serial problem in television, and a particular weakness of CBS.

Also, the shmaltz is climbing. At first it was reserved to that magnificently awful "feelings" music that kicked in whenever Pamela Reed decided to talk to anyone. But the return in the finale of a missing character, at precisely the moment he did so, was not just deus ex machina, it's like the machina was a frikkin' robot who was in charge of running the universe according to specs designed by an omnisicent parallel universe bastard OCD son of Newton and Copernicus.

It feels like some bit of arc-planning went awry in the middle of those first 11, something went out of balance and certain elements sloshed to one end of the arc. No idea how it happened, but I damn near quit the show right then and there despite my affection for it. Status: on probation.

LOST: ... oy. And I say this with friends on the show. But oy. Unlike many people, I think the flashback structure is still useful. But look at what we got for flashbacks so far:

1.) Jack's marriage fell apart, and he was obsessive. No new information, or even anything different from previous flashbacks. Really nothing to do with the mystery of the island.

2.) Turns out Jin knew a lot more about Sun's infidelities than he let on, some Sun responsibility issues ... pretty good, and new information. Although his mastery of tactics reveals why Sayid was an interrogator and code-breaker in the Iraqi army as opposed to, say, a combat officer.

3.) Locke worked on a commune, accidentally screwed the potgrowers there, and then couldn't kill a day player. Which is not all that surprising. Him not killing people. As he's a good guy.

4.) Sawyer's a con man with a heart of gold. REALLY?!

5.) Eko once broke his vow as a priest and killed some day players. Which is not all that surprising. Him killing people. As he's a killer.

Oh, and then in the episode proper, one of the top three coolest humans on the island dies. And there are other hatches. Which we already know. And more characters are introduced! Yay!

6.) Kate, the emotionally unstable criminal who can't commit to nice guy Jack, couldn't commit to nice-guy sheriff back in the day, either. Now, looking at her pattern with the childhood-boyfriend doc, and the sheriff, I can see the arc there. But .. jeebus.

The weird thing is, all these episodes were very, very well-written. Seriously, LOST has one of the best staffs currently working in television. But the decision to start in the Others' camp (regardless of a very cool reveal vis-a-vis the original crash) is like ... the audience is being told that this goddam story is interesting whether they like it or not, or regardless of whether it's interesting or revelatory or not. You like Hurley, a character we spent two years getting you to invest in? Tough glass titties, prole.* He'll be back in May. Look, more unnecessarily cryptic white folk!

At the moment I found myself thinking "Hey Jack, they want you to do spinal surgery on their evil leader. How about making a deal where they have to explain ONE SINGLE SOLITARY GODDAM THING ABOUT THIS ISLAND, and then you'll do it? Huh? Who on EARTH wouldn't bargain that?" I started to die a little inside. I understand that the castaways are in over their head, but it's like they've developed some sort of bizarre learned helplessness (as have we. Wait a minute, is this all part of the experiment --?).

You can stall on the A-story, or blow a flashback on straight characterization, but both? I have full faith that the back half of the season will set my retinas on fire. But at this point it's straight faith, a situation I'm never comfortable with.

Your kvetches, recommendations, etc. in the Comments. I'm psyched about the return of ROME. I'm already pantless. Err, in a toga. You know what I mean.









* heh. that one's just for me.

93 comments:

Manwurst Brinestone said...

Um... VM?

nico said...

dead right about lost, any kind of realistic thinking has gone overboard. Everytime I see an episode I keep asking myself the same question: why the fuck isn't anybody asking what the bloody hell is going on? it's frustrating

about studio 60, i do enjoy the properties of cannabis but i don't think it has anything to do with the quality of the series, although I must admit that it pisses me off a bit having to stop and rewind sometimes (i'm spanish) due to the sheer velocity of dialog. Where's closed captioning when you need it?

Anonymous said...

The producers of Lost need to start thinking about what happens in a couple years when they get the notice that they won't be renewed and they only have 4 episodes to wrap up 4 years of mystery.

Didn't anyone learn from the Babylon 5 debacle that was their season 4?

WizarDru said...

"Babylon 5 debacle that was their season four?"

Babylon 5's fourth season mostly suffered from condensing the best parts of the then jeapordized fifth season into the fourth. Babylon 5 was always envisioned as a five-year series, and that bore out.

Lost, on the other hand, doesn't feel like it's GOING anywhere. Heroes has totally trumped them. Heroes doesn't feel like we're being jerked around. The plot moves and moves fast. New information is conveyed and new mysteries take their place, but we don't get silence and pregnant pauses with cryptic answers and wasted flashbacks.

I totally agree that Lost is extremely well written. The flashbacks were interesting...but really did give us NOTHING new to work with. And the move to 10PM? Bad move, ABC. REALLY BAD.

I haven't stopped watching, but they better start delivering in the spring. 'Cuz we've got Heroes now, and damn if that isn't filling the gap that Lost used to.

Chris_P said...

I wish the writers for Lost could understand that complete secrecy is not a substitute for drama, and mystery is different than not telling us what the fuck is going on.

BG does it right - we need to be given something to understand and be invested in. Hell, it makes what we don't know even more mysterious.

But to know NOTHING at all? AHHH!!!! It's frustrating. Throw us a bone! Or else we're just going to get fed up and leave.

Janice said...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on VERONICA MARS. I've found the season disappointing, though not as bad as season 2.

I never watched THE WEST WING; the last Sorkin series I watched was SPORTS NIGHT. So I keep staring at STUDIO 60, wondering what the hell happened to the funny.

You and everyone else are right about LOST, and we'll all keep kvetching, but we all keep watching, don't we? It'd be great if he'd answer one question before introducing three new ones. I'm certain we'll be mighty pissed off at Abrams when the show ends and 90% of this shit is left unexplained.

Re BSG: Now that I've seen Adama and Laura get stoned together, my life is complete.

davis said...

I would say that much analysis of JERICHO is a bit unwarranted, but that's just because, from what I've seen, the show is nothing but laughably banal.

DEXTER, however, is sort of brilliant. It's really got some stones. I wish they'd screw with the dynamic enough to, say, kill off his sister.

Matthew E said...

I have a prediction about Lost: the season finale will involve the Others' village/stronghold being completely destroyed and most if not all of the Others killed. I have no insider knowledge of any kind; this is just the way I think it's going to play out.

And I'm disappointed in Jack. The guy took the Hippocratic Oath. I would have liked to hear him say, "Of course I'll perform the operation. You should have asked me before." Not practical, maybe, but I wish he had stayed true to that part of his character.

Joshua James said...

Jesus, I thought I was the only one bored by the evil stripper mom - I was convinced that something was wrong with me because I am more stoked about seeing Adrian Pasdar rocket through the air than I am about Nikki going schizo in short shorts.

Tigerblade said...

I hadn't been following Heroes during the season, until just recently when I found out I could watch the back episodes on NBC's website... and damn I'm hooked now. Sort of like a slightly more realistic X-Men, almost.
And yes, evil stripper mom is boring. Hopefully they develop that into something soon, otherwise kill her off. I'd have liked to see more of perfect-memory-waitress instead. And the kid, Micah... what's his ability, exactly?


As for BSG... holy wow. I've been following since the 4-hour miniseries kickoff, and damn. It's the one show per week I specifically make time for. Unbelievable.

coltrane said...

Good Analysis...although Jericho has gotten far worse than you give it credit for. I gave the show a chance, but it's become obvious it's the apocalypse brought to you by the Hallmark Channel. The show isn't nearly mean enough. It's the END OF THE WORLD for crissakes!

David Press said...

LOST: Kind of pissed that they wasted a perfectly good actor in Nathan Fillion on some expository side story of Kate's and why she ends up in a cage with Sawyer (which isn't a metaphor for something, than I don't what is.) Lost continues to frustrate the hell out ofme but that's the sole reason I continue to watch it. Out of frustration.

30 ROCK: I can't help but be crushing hard on Tina Fey. I really like her. She's a good writer but I frankly thought she's not funny on SNL and on this show. I only watch for Baldwin and the rest of the characters on that show I couldn't care about. I'm just glad Scrubs is back. (which Grey's Anatomy is such a blatant rip-off of.)

BSG: Yeah, that's how it's done.Best show on TV.

I just caught all of season two of WEEDS ondemand. That show is fantastic. Really well-written. That whole monologue the uncle goes into regarding masturbation was hilarious.

Allen said...

I haven't smoked out in years, but I still think Studio 60 has gotten much better — the change in the writer's room on the show has made Matt get to interact with other people more, which is good, and even more importantly, the self-importance and preaching have been dialed way, way down. Do you realize that they just had an episode revolving around Christmas — and Harriet's opinions and views about Christmas weren't even mentioned, not even in passing? For that alone, I bump up the grade a couple of notches.

And re:Heroes: yeah, I wouldn't be the least bit upset if Niki/Jessica just... disappeared. D.L. and Micah are far, far more intriguing characters. I'd rather see them integrated more into the main plot and have Niki/Jessica... well, not.

nolo said...

I agree totally re Dexter (no love for Dexter here from your other commenters? I'm sad.). My fears about whether the concept would hold together were completely unfounded. Plus, the character development has been excellent, especially with the women.

fuz said...

Heroes:
I agree; Niki is a bit boring right now. But three or four episodes ago? It was the cheerleader. Now it's Niki. I think next up is Peter.

For me at least, as a character gets more screen-time I get tired of them. The lovely thing about Heroes is that there's the rest of the ensemble to retain my interest.

Anonymous said...

LOST: no mystery there, it will be revealed that the island is the abandoned Fantasy Island...

Tom Hilton said...

I agree totally re Dexter (no love for Dexter here from your other commenters? I'm sad.).

Lots of love here. How can anyone not love a serial killer comedy of manners? That manages to be funny and keep you on the edge of your seat?

Oh, and just started rewatching Rome Season I, and fell in love all over again. Can hardly wait for II.

Simon Underwood said...

Being British and not being arsed to torrent everything I want to see I have to wait for most of these shows.

I just watched all of BSG from the mini series up to the end of season 2 in the last couple of months and damn if it isn't one of my favourite things ever. Initially I was renting one disc at a time, but I just jumped in and bought season 2 unseen. We get 3 here in the new year and I'll be gnawing at the bit till then.

Heroes: I've not seen any bar ten minutes of the pilot, but we get that next year too. Basically though, they had me at Hayden Panettiere playing a cheerleader.

Lost: Grrgh. I've got the first four eps of season 3 to watch, but I'm wondering if I can really be bothered. I loved the first series, but now, like every other person alive, the lack of even basic questions and answers is bugging the hell out of me. If this all ultimately doesn't have the BEST explanation and finale in TV history one day, you will hear my frustrated scream across continents. And I've still not forgiven them for Shannon.

On an Abrams side note, I'm one disc away from the finale of Alias and I'm loving series 5. It may have meandered over the years, but it's all coming together well now.

I still haven't seen all but the pilot of Veronica Mars and I really need to see more. I also await the second season of Prison Break with every single fibre of my being.

In closure then, I need to catch up on a hell of a lot of TV.

Aluvius said...

BSG: Best show ever. So were Adama and Roslin smoking some form of wacky tobaccy? That's the impression I got, I even think Adama said something about it being grown up in the mountains?

Heroes: I think DL and stripper mom don't get along on the set which is one of the reasons their arc hasn't worked out very well. As for Micah, I think his ability involves electronics/machinery, as in he can make it do things it shouldn't as well as make broken items work (ala the phone he used to call stripper mom).

Jericho: Its entertaining, but yeah definitely too soft. It has the potential to be so much more.

Lost: Yes its frustrating, but I'll keep watching till it goes away.

Anonymous said...

John -

Fear not! There's still MI-5 to download. HUSTLE and the new season of LIFE ON MARS are coming...

The Minstrel Boy said...

i was beginning to think that i was one of about twelve who enjoy dexter. . . hell, i just enjoy being able to write things like "a sensitive, good hearted, sociopathic serial killer." BSG, so hooked, so hooked. Jane E's ep was very Janish. the boxing ep was killer. cliche and killer at the same time. i was married to a woman who would get that "crazy starbuck" look on her face. every time i see it on screen i shiver and make sure my lawyer's number is still on speed dial.

Malloy said...

Oh, I think Locke DID shoot that guy. I think we'll find that out in a flashback someday. It would certainly clarify all the Boone-Locke oddness of Season 1. Really, up until they cut away I was thinking, oh, I get it, he kills this guy and then tries to make amends with Boone who he ends up losing as well. That's why he thinks he destroys everything he touches. Or at least, that would have been interesting television.

Matt said...

I'm in total agreement with your take on the shows I watch (BSG, Heroes, Jericho). I'm sad about Jericho; the idea had such potential. With regards to Heroes... OH HELLS YES THE SWORD. *cough* 'Scuse me.

IMHO, Day Break is the best thing going on Wednesday nights. The fact that it's an action-drama with a premise distinctly resembling Groundhog Day may be a little off-putting, but somehow it works. Also, I'm man enough to admit that I've missed seeing Adam Baldwin on screen.

clarkman said...

Anyone watching CAMPUS LADIES on Oxygen?

One of the funniest half-hours going. Seriously.

Anonymous said...

Exactly right about Jericho and the female characters. In fact, the show officially lost me with the episode where the women weep about the wedding while the men save the town. I'm not obsessive about this stuff, but this was officially too egregious to bear. How could they not notice what they were doing?

Plus, as other commentators have noted, the show just isn't getting nasty and realistic enough for me.

>sigh<

Luckily I can take comfort with Heroes, BSG and even Ugly Betty, which are truly enjoyable shows where the women happen to kick ass.

-PS

Rogers said...

VM is weirdly uneven but still interesting. The take on American College life, with the booze and narcissism and self-righteousness typical of that age,k is pretty sharp. I'm liking this season a more than last.

It's yet to hit the lovely queasiness of the incest beat from first season, however.

Matthew E said...

LOST: no mystery there, it will be revealed that the island is the abandoned Fantasy Island...

That would be so great! I would have such respect for them if it turned out that that was where they were going...

Chris said...

As a friend of mine said, take all my stock off "Lost," move it to "Heroes." If the pacing on the shows were reversed, it would be Season 3 before we saw Adrian Pasdar rocket into the sky.

You'll never believe this, but S60's Christmas episode was the best. Almost as good as Sports Night. And the sketches were actually funny. Well, some of them.

BSG is still the best show on TV, though. It's a crime it doesn't get more attention.

Anonymous said...

No Eureka love?

Rogers said...

No Eureka love?

Conflict of interest, as I actually worked on it. But Andy did a helluva job.

Mark said...

Luckily I can take comfort with Heroes, BSG and even Ugly Betty, which are truly enjoyable shows where the women happen to kick ass.

Actually, one of my few complaints about Heroes is the relative lack of female heroes. Not to be an arch feminist or anything, but it seems to me that half of all these mutants should be women, but the show doesn't break that way at all. And of the four women who do have powers, two are already dead.

WizarDru said...

The problem with Niki/Jessica on Heroes is that it has not, in any way shape or form, tied into the core story of the show. Everyone else is, at some level, headed towards the event in NY or dealing with Sylar or a combination of the two.

Other than having a tattoo, we don't really get any strong connection between Niki and anything else, really. The same is essentially true for D.L. and Micah, but they're interesting characters in their own right...and Niki ISN'T.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, but Nikki looks good in a thong. I'd watch her story just to see her get half naked from time to time. She's hot.

Anonymous said...

Here's how to save LOST--

The all get rescued, and we see them back home as they flashback to the rest of their time on the island. Oh wait, that's THE NINE.

Anonymous said...

Your HEROES analysis is bang on.

Anonymous said...

Studio 60 I started off hating, and now I love. I feel like, though there are still lots of problems with the show, the actors and characters seemed to settle.

HEROES. I too got hooked rewatching online on NBC.com. Can't wait for the next season. I really wanted the Gabriel Sklar character developed more. I miss the persuasion girl already. What's the Cheerleaders secret?

Anonymous said...

VM has been spottier this season than previous, but when it's solid it's almost painfully good. S60 is just Sorkin, and if you like the style it'll tickle you often enough to keep you interested and once in a while he'll hit one out of the park. On the whole, it probably doesn't deserve to live.

Lost should just die. Sorry, but they have just flogged it to death and I'm tired. I like intricate plots as much as the next fellow but this is not intricate, it's baroque. I've stopped watching and thrown in with Heroes.

Hiro is one of the most honest characters I've ever seen on TV, and his buddy Ando is probably second. I just wish they hadn't killed off the only truly interesting female Hero. Hopefully we'll meet a new one soon.

Sean said...

I love Lost, so for the good of the show, I truly, truly hope that the next run of episodes ends the series. Wrap things up.

Why didn't Jack, Sawyer or Kate ask about all the kidnapped people? Did the Others' eat them?

Janice ~ the problem with Lost is that people aren't continuing to watch. Didn't it have a 25% drop in ratings from 2nd year?

Jim D. said...

With Lost, I'm still kind of waiting for Kyle McLachlan to parachute in and ask "How's Annie?" (That's what I dread, is that there won't be a satisfying ending, or even an ending at all.)

Either that or they'll discover a circle of palm frond huts, a white transistor radio, and machinery made of coconut shells and vines.

Brian said...

Referral for Warren's post. BSG = Battle Star Galactica? You can't be serious? Every time I catch this I come away even less impressed than before...

Eric said...

How can you discuss the TV season with no mention of The Wire?

The best dramatic TV series ever made got even better this season.

GM Doug said...

I guess I'm the only one here who enjoys Friday Night Lights. But then I'm a Football Coach. It nails much of the emotion with running a team more realistic than just about any other drama on TV.

Of course I'm also a Super Hero fan and love most things Sci-fi (Trek never managed it for me except Enterprise!) and I'm sure if we were all running around in space of jumping off tall buildings Heroes, BSG etc would seem realistic.

Don't get me wrong. BSG is the best show on TV in the world right now. Heroes I'm getting ready to see the first 11 shows in a row over the holidays. Prison Break I've heard good things about and I've got all of VM season 2 and 3 (so far) waiting for me.

But the show I can't wait for... Smallville with the upcoming Justice episode. Yes I know it's not cannon and I would prefer a different line up... but live action JLoA that's not a comedy? I'll take that in a heart beat for my geek sins.

Oh and John... Blue Beetle as a Animated show... Something about the concept screams "The new Static". See what you can do please?

Hawise said...

I am in love with Hiro. He is so refreshing and the fact that he believes all the predictions immediately is great. No thinking about it, but straight to-"How do you stop an exploding man?" or where do I find the sword. Let everyone else analyze it all to death, Hiro will get the job done if he can. I hope they are going somewhere with Niki/Jessica because the men in her life are interesting but she is a dead weight.

Anonymous said...

All this talk about problem plots in HEROES, and it's all about Niki? What about Mohinder?

Niki's story is less interesting than all the other heroes', probably because the delay in her acknowledging her powers has her moving at LOST speed instead of HEROES speed. But "less interesting" is a whole lot better than "no interest", which is what I feel about the Mohinder story. His bits are as awful as the Susan Meyer segments on DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES.

PRISON BREAK: where the hell is Haywire?

Anonymous said...

gm doug, you are not alone. Friday Night Lights is absolutely my favorite TV show this fall.

Anonymous said...

I'm disappointed in this season of BSG. Too much misery and too much of the dark sides of people. I am fast losing empathy for the main characters. Cara has become a really nasty person, and her flashback actions were weak and completely out of character for a ballbuster like her. Apollo, likewise, has been revealed to be made of jello. There's not much there there. He used Dualla like a safety net. Nice.

Helo is a traitor, and his actions made no sense in the context of the genocide perpetrated by the cylons. Tigh is a bitter, broken vessel (I think he came back for the food). Adama seems to be losing touch with his crew. Dualla is a dupe and a reject.

Roslin is a rock. Athena is a model citizen. Chief and his wife are OK.

I'm bummed, because I used to really like Starbuck. I guess the writers thought they had allowed her to become too much of a hero, and now I think they've gone too far the other way.

Keith said...

The writers of Lost, however good they may be (and are), have written themselves into a hole the size of the Grand Canyon. No matter what explanation they come up with, it won't cover everything in a satisfactory manner. Anything that explains the numbers, black cloud and polar bears is verging on magical green rock territory.

Either they're lying about everyone being dead, making this the longest, most circuitous route to Hell, or they just don't know. I go with don't know.

Anonymous said...

Count three on Friday Night Lights. It's compelling, beautiful, realistic, honest, drama. The antithesis of "Lost".

David Press said...

yeah, i also would like to throw my hat in there for FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS. Tonight's episode was really good. This show is just damn fine. I can't specifically say what makes it "damn fine," but it just is. Minka Kelly, who I am crushing on hard, really came out and became a new character this episode rather than the cookie cutter Captain Cheerleader that she has been all season. Honestly, I can't recommend this show enough.

mike80 said...

BSG rocks - true that. What gets me about the show is the way they play with your felling for the characters,you can't continue to like one throughout the whole show. EG, when it first started, my fave was Starbuck. I hated Tigh. Now, after many episodes, I hate Starbuck (so mad they killed Kat instead of her) and I watch the show for Tigh. That "paper shortage" bit killed me. Goood writing.

Anonymous said...

I agree with wizardru about the problem with the Niki plot: "...it has not, in any way shape or form, tied into the core story of the show."

Exactly. But that seems likely to change. Every other plot spent half a dozen episodes laying pipe before reaching something of a climax in recent weeks. Ditto Mohinder. In fact, I've felt that way about all the plots, which is why I disagree with wizardru here:

"Heroes doesn't feel like we're being jerked around. The plot moves and moves fast."

On the contrary. I've felt jerked around since about episode #2. Perhaps the season- or series-long arcs are playing out fast, compared to Lost, but one important thing is missing: plots for each episode.

When Rogers says, "HEROES shows mastery of what all television will look like very soon," I hope he means in terms of scheduling. Because the lack of even token episodic plots -- with the notable exception of "Homecoming" and arguably Hiro's diversion in the flashback episode -- is something I dearly hope doesn't become standard TV.

Wax Banks said...

Rogers -

Serious question. You call the Lost writing staff one of the best on TV. But...y'see...I...

...what the hell are you talking about? Really, would you mind elaborating on that evaluation a little bit? I ask because every single character fits into one of three categories:

1) Never made it out of their one-line writers' bible description and were or will be or should be killed off (e.g. Boone, Shannon, Eko, Sawyer, Ana Lucia, Libby, Rousseau). Hurley would be in this category were Jorge Garcia's performance not so enjoyable. All save one of these deaths came after Abrams removed his hand from the tiller; Rousseau got a strong moment in Season Two (in the Girls' Adventure episode) but is a device, not a person.

2) Wandered afield from their one-line writers' bible description and became incoherent/illogical (e.g. Michael, Charlie(!), Sayid(!!), Kate). This is the telling category I'm afraid - illustrating how quickly the writers will sell out a character and a performance for a 'thrilling' storyline, e.g. Charlie going nuts, Michael going nuts, Sayid declaring love for Shannon, etc.).

3) Are named Locke, Ben, Juliet, Desmond, or Jack, or are Korean.

The third category is the one of interest. Jin and Sun are just beautifully played, the one consistently sensible and interesting relationship on the show; Locke is a ludicrous mishmash of writerly gestures so well played that Terry O'Quinn should be declared either illegal or compulsory for all Americans; Jack keeps going crazier, threatening to move to category 2, but Matthew Fox keeps finding ways to make his rapidly-approaching nervous breakdown interesting. And the two Others and Desmond are basically ciphers, not yet exposed to the harshness of Lost's utterly feeble characterization.

So seriously, man: what's good about these writers? 'Structure'? C'mon, the flashbacks are hopelessly dull more often than not. Certainly you can't be praising their knack for rendering characters, when their default 'psychology' is to locate the adorable trauma that's struck each character and then regurgitate it every ten episodes or so. Is it the dialogue? Hackneyed overwrought garbage most of the time, straining hard to be interesting and never attaining even a note of casualness or humanity. Any writing staff that exists in the same universe as Joss Whedon has to work hard to measure up.

So what are you seeing here? You're a professional and a solid writer and I respect your opinion about this stuff, but your up-front claim strikes me as completely, utterly wrong.

Help?

Maestro said...

On the bright side, if Jericho tanks, maybe Shoshannah Stern will turn up on Weeds again.

BTW no one's watching Season 2 of Sleeper Cell?

Mark

James Slusher said...

Nobody has mentioned DAYBREAK!

Best show on TV, and the writing is tight.

Full disclosure: I think I might have a man-crush on Taye Diggs. Just saying.

TuckPendleton said...

I realize this is a genre-heavy board that will naturally lean more to the BSGs, Veronica Mars, Heroes of the world...but seriously, people, there is no better show on television than the Wire.

If you really think BSG is the best show on television, (or any of the others mentioned here) I respectfully suggest you watch The Wire post-haste.

The Wire is a show where nothing is wasted, where complicated, deep storylines give the viewer credit, and one that doesn't rely on a crutch like starships, magic, and jailbait hotties. (Not there's anything wrong with those things.)

There is no weak link among the actors, the writers are some of the best around (yes, better than Lost) and the direction is non-pareil.

With respect to our host here, The Wire (is) "how you go about the business of televising."

You owe to yourself to give it a shot.

Jumada said...

One more recommendation for The Wire. Nothing else is even close. I love The Sopranos, Rome, Deadwood, and Lost, but The Wire surpasses all of them.

The writing is stellar and the acting, by a largely unknown cast, is unbelievably spectacular – or should that be believably? Anyway, it's really fantastic, and the season that just wrapped up was the best yet.

Rob said...

LOST: I've almost given up. Second season made me think maybe they weren't just making all it up as they go, but third season has dispelled any such delusions. LOST is a Rubik's Cube where every square is a different color. Sure looks complicated and intriguing at first blush, but no matter how you twist it you're not getting any closer to anything.

HEROES: I'm liking it more and more, but it still seems to want me to appreciate it for a subtlety it isn't quite achieving. Also, I sincerely hope the cheerleader is well and truly saved now, because I was on the verge of throwing things at the screen when some character delivered some variant on that stupid, stupid tagline every fifteen seconds or so.

I'm even warming up to Evil Stripper Mom a little, but that's starting from "kill off her quick or I'm outta here." She doesn't just seem to be in another show. She's from another show. All the other characters are trying to do a modern superhero story. Meanwhile, ESM seems to be a walk-on from a Lifetime Original Movie by Stephen King.

I have my suspicions about what they're going to do with her. I hope I'm not right, so I'll keep them to myself.

BSG: Hardly needs mentioning. I'm still twitching a little from that hot drop scene. There's one thing they've been doing recently that I want to mention, though: BSG is the leanest show I've ever seen in terms of arc:filler ratio. Lowering that ratio would automatically lose points for me. Lately, though, they've been doing shows that look for all the world like filler until you get into them and they turn out to be great episodes that advance the drama. I know they love screwing with people's heads, but is suggesting a drop in quality (as measured by filler) really such a good gag?

Josh said...

Throw me in on the S60 train as well, the Christmas episode was a great hour of television. In the past few weeks we've seen some of the sketches become more amusing (Danny keeping host Howie Mandel standing by while he sat on the phone for a minute is one of my favorites). If you turned off this show, they're replaying the Christmas episode 12/18 at 10 PM. You owe it to yourself to watch that episode, then reevaluate your judgement of S60 (John...)

John, I caught the pilot episode of Eureka online but couldn't keep up with it over the summer. Any idea when we might see a DVD?

Anonymous said...

Bonjour!
just discovered your blog today, had my own review of my favorite fall tv shows. 2 weeks after this post (and after watching more of 'Dexter'), I think that this tv show might actually be the best on tv right now. Michael C. Hall is stellar in it :)

Rogers said...

re THE WIRE -- I'm one of the late arrival box-set guys. still watching. But hell yes, it's great.

Declan said...

I'm surprised Mrs. KFM hasn't called out Heroes for a world filled with male heroes and just 2 (living) female ones: a stripper and a cheerleader.

Not to be an arch-feminist either, but we've already seen lots of comments on the physical attractiveness of the two female heroes just in this thread - and nothing on the men, which may mostly be just life imitating life, but is also life imitating art in this case.

Besides, I'm not sure how much ass kicking the women are really doing when one has developed a split personality disorder after being abused by her father, one (who is invincible) has to be rescued by a male nurse after helplessly watching her female friend die, and the rest are either largely irrelevant or have been killed off already.

Still a great show, but they should be trying to introduce interesting, strong female heroes, not killing off the few they have.

Other than that, I agree with your assessment, especially about Lost, which is living up to it's name these days.

duncanralston said...

I totally agree about DEXTER. It is a perfect concept perfectly executed.

Papa Bear said...

I'm afraid that the Niki/Jessica story in Heroes leaves me rather cold, too...it's had elements of Wile E. Coyote scattered through it, I don't find Ali Larter all that engaging, and aside from minor connections to some of the other characters (Hiro, Ando, Nathan, BGM and the Haitian) the three of them are pretty much divorced from the main tale, and if cuts needed to be made, well...there's the dotted line right around Niki, DL and Micah.

I still find the show quite entertaining, even with the slight set-up that paying attention to the weekly comic explains a few things, and I find myself willing to forgive lapses in the writing because much of it is so compelling. Hell, I forgive Torchwood more for less payoff.

I had hopes that Lost would get back on some kind of track, and the first episode of the season got me watching weekly again. Well, except that I've yet to play back the sixth episode because the previous five were a slide down expectation's slippery slope.

I quit Studio 60 and have yet to go back. I don't feel I miss anything either. I'd sooner spend that time watching Have Gun-Will Travel, which had some rather good writing from Gene Roddenberry. it's a simple show from a simpler time, but it had some damned fine episodes.

Papa Bear said...

Those pissed off about the male/female imbalance in Heroes should hang on for the next batch of episodes -- more women are on the way. So is Christopher Eccleston, playing an invisible man named Claude.

Anonymous said...

Question: If the character is invisible, why did they need to hire Chris Eccleston?

Kid Sis said...

Why are two men apologizing for being feminist? On John's site, of all things?

This effin world. Let the cylons take it.

Eric said...

John,

If your just getting into the Wire all I can say is set aside time and watch the first 3 seasons quick enough so you can catch Season 4 while it is still available via On-Demand. Otherwise you are gonna get real frustrated waiting for Season 4 on DVD:-)

Anonymous said...

Conflict of interest, as I actually worked on it. But Andy did a helluva job.
Piffle! Piffle, I say! I don't think there's any conflict of interest as long as you say up front that you worked on the show and might therefore be biased.

Oh well, you're the big Hollywood dude and I'm a random nut in your comments. I think maybe my opinion doesn't count for much. :-)

(And I'm also tired. The verification word is "fnufr" and for some reason I find it absolutely hysterical.)

Dave said...

There are few enough TV promos that leave you shaking your fist and roaring "YEAHHH!" at the screen.

The Rome promo featuring Titus Pullo looking grim and saying "You'll be wanting revenge then."

Is one such.

Pop the popcorn. Lock the door. Anesthetize the kids.

Sunday nights officially off limits, starting in January.

Wasp Jerky said...

Lost: One thing a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of Lost mythology has been expanded rather significantly through the Lost Experience game that they did last year. I don't know if it's supposed to be taken as canon, but if it is, then the mystery of the numbers and what the Hanso Foundation is/was working towards has been revealed, or at least pointed towards. Of course, that raises the issue of why the hell they would do that in a multimedia game than only maybe 1 percent of the show's audience participated in. And when the hell they're actually going to reveal those things on the show itself.

cleter said...

Lost is dissolving into a hideous hellbrew of the worst features of "Gilligan's Island" AND "The Prisoner." Interest...fading.

Westacular said...

Lost should just die. Sorry, but they have just flogged it to death and I'm tired. I like intricate plots as much as the next fellow but this is not intricate, it's baroque.

I still have faith in the show, but I think you really hit on something with the "baroque" comment. Lost is excessively adhering to a particular form, filling in details, but people's patience is wearing thin. As John said, there's nothing wrong with the flashback structure per se, but would it kill them to use it for something that actually supports the story (as it did so well in the first season)?

I think part of the issue might be how the mystery pasts of all of these characters was one of the big hooks in season one. Who were they, and why were they acting like that? We find out, it makes sense, and we care. As they move on, banding together while overcoming their personal demons, we rejoice. (Witness: Sawyer's talk with Jack about his father)

... And then the characters just collapse back to their selfish, original forms. And we get another flashback showing us again, with some new minor details, why they that way. The problem is it doesn't work a second time: we already know the major reason, and we've already seen that they can overcome it.

There's valid things that can be said about recidivism, and the ease with which one falls back into old vices and habits, but the show isn't playing from that angle strongly enough for it to work. And without some redemption (which, aside from the new characters, season two sorely lacked), it's not particularly rewarding to watch.

The show has come to rely on new characters to maintain interest, because they have not found a way to grow or extend current ones in a sustainable fashion. The flashbacks won't let them move beyond who they were, and the writers aren't willing to create significant new twists in the backstories for fear of it appearing like a retcon.

... Thankfully the new characters are pretty awesome. I just wish Desmond is used a whole lot more in the next arc.

Westacular said...

As an addendum to the above: Veronica Mars is facing a similar problem, as creator Rob Thomas has readily admitted. The degree to which a story arc is compelling to the viewer is directly linked to how personal it is to Veronica. Unless they start killing fan-favourite characters, there's simply no way it can reach the level of tension of the first two seasons.

One thing that would be interesting, however, and might for once actually work, is if they jumped forward five years between seasons, and started having fun with the character you know Veronica will become. The events of the skipped time could be used provide that personal aspect in a way that can't as believably be done using only a summer as a gap as it's done so far.

Anonymous said...

Rob Thomas should just ask Joss Whedon how to kill off a fan favorite character, he knows how it's done.

B2b said...

B2b,
B2b Business,business to business industry professional
B2b Marketplace,nternational multilingual B2B marketplace
B2b Marketing,marketing content site giving B2B
B2b Site,Web site with B2B
B2b E-Commerce,benefited from B2B e-commerce include
B2b Portal,Online searchable business
B2b B2c,Information for C-Level
B2b Trust, B2B Trust offers
B2b Sales,usiness to business b2b sales
B2b Trade, b2g import export trade
B2b Directory, comprehensive directory of b2b
Indymac B2b, career potential,
B2b Contractors, The B2B contractors
B2b supply chain, integrating a B2B supply chain is not magic
B2b Trade Leads,trade leads for import export
Yahoo B2b,Yahoo! reviewed these sites and found them related to Business to Business (B2B)
B2b Commerce,Build powerful e-commerce
B2b Magazine,A magazine for business-to-business
B2b Websites,Designing B2B Websites
Taiwan B2b, Global Taiwan China Asian B2B Commerce

Flights said...

Flights,
British Airways Flights,
Domestic Flights,
Economic Flights,
Flight Tracker,
Flights Plans,
Flights Schools,
Slights Security,
Flights Offers,
International Flights,
Military Flights,
Private Pilot Certificate,

night vision said...

Night Vision,
Night Vision Binoculars,With the proper night-vision equipment
Night Vision Scopes,Offers night vision binoculars
Night Vision Cameras,Night Vision Googles Night vision
Itt Night Vision,Night Vision Yahoo (NVG)
Night Vision Glasses,High spec night vision technology
Night Vision Camcorder,Modules for Camcorders
Night Vision Devices,High quality optical devices
Night Vision Security Cameras,security camera equipment
Ant Night Vision,A lot of us would like
Bushnell Night Vision,monoculars
Night Owl Night Vision,Complete Darkness with Night Owl
Yukon Night Vision,manufacturers of Yukon
Night Vision Optics,variety of day-time optics
Night Vision Rifle Scopes,Supplier of night vision device
Night Vision Equipment, the most complete selection
Us Night Vision,US Army and Electronic Sensors Directorate
Cheap Night Vision,Technology products
Night Vision Gear,Hard to find spy cameras
Russian Night Vision,Russian made night vision
Litton Night Visionfeaturing unrivaled Litton Night Vision

Flooring said...

Flooring,
Armstrong flooring, Welcome to the colorful world of Flooring
Bamboo flooring, Bamboo is botanically classified as grass
Brick flooring,The brick flooring is one of the best unmatched alternative for flooring devices.
Concrete Flooring,it is cost effective, durable & high strength
Cork Flooring, warm & quite with high durability
Wood floor, Wood floors are excellent choice
Kitchen flooring,
Laminate Floors, Laminate flooring is the best alternate for real hardwood flooring Laminate flooring is the best.more info avaleble on google ,yahoo & msn
Marble flooring,One of which is hard stone product
Rubber flooring, his one is a revolutionary product in flooring phenomena
State flooring,Welcome to State Flooring
Flooring Industry,

Anonymous said...

银饰批发
翻译公司
翻译公司
翻译公司
翻译公司
北京翻译公司
翻译公司
北京翻译公司
翻译公司
视频聊天
英语翻译
英语翻译
日语翻译
日语翻译
法语翻译
德语翻译
韩语翻译
俄语翻译
小语种翻译
口译
同声传译
软件测试
发电机
发电机组
柴油发电机组
柴油发电机
康明斯柴油发电机组
康明斯发电机组
视频聊天
SKF轴承
FAG轴承
NSK轴承
烟气分析仪
烟气分析仪
FLASH制作
动画制作
租车
3D福利彩票
尿失禁
电子秤
电子磅
数据恢复
拓展训练
月嫂
北京搬家公司
条码打印机
特种胶带
韩国饰品加盟
网上购物系统
渔具
成人用品
搬场公司
水泵
搬家公司
手机信号屏蔽器
搬场公司
办公家具
礼品公司
银饰批发
搬场公司
新时代
服务器
英语翻译

zy said...

货架 网站流量分析 月嫂 大屏幕 婚庆公司 吸声喷涂 进口轴承 保洁 保洁公司 加固 滑雪 北京滑雪 滑雪场 北京滑雪场 性病 梅毒 疱疹 前列腺炎 尖锐湿疣 非淋菌性尿道炎 高血压 高血压治疗 治疗高血压 真人cs 司法考试 国际机票 保温喷涂 机柜 北京保洁 北京保洁公司 国际机票 婚庆 标签纸 条码打印机 星辰科技 司法考试

Anonymous said...

runescape money runescape gold runescape money runescape gold wow power leveling wow powerleveling Warcraft Power Leveling Warcraft PowerLeveling buy runescape gold buy runescape money runescape items runescape gold runescape money runescape accounts runescape gp dofus kamas buy dofus kamas Guild Wars Gold buy Guild Wars Gold lotro gold buy lotro gold lotro gold buy lotro gold lotro gold buy lotro goldrunescape money runescape power leveling runescape money runescape gold dofus kamas cheap runescape money cheap runescape gold Hellgate Palladium Hellgate London Palladium Hellgate money Tabula Rasa gold tabula rasa money Tabula Rasa Credit Tabula Rasa Credits Hellgate gold Hellgate London gold wow power leveling wow powerleveling Warcraft PowerLeveling Warcraft Power Leveling World of Warcraft PowerLeveling World of Warcraft Power Leveling runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling eve isk eve online isk eve isk eve online isk 血管瘤 肝血管瘤 音乐剧 北京富码电视 富码电视 富码电视台 7天酒店 7天连锁酒店 7天连锁 自清洗过滤器 过滤器 压力开关 压力传感器 流量开关 流量计 液位计 液位开关 温湿度记录仪 风速仪 可燃气体检测仪

SEO said...

液压升降机,苏州升降机,苏州升降机厂,苏州升降机有限公司,施工升降机,丝杆升降机,液压升降平台,电动升降平台,天津升降平台,液压升降平台车,升降平台车,沈阳升降平台,天津登车桥,液压登车桥,移动式登车桥,移动登车桥,移动式液压登车桥,固定式液压登车桥,超市货架,北京货架,南京货架,货架公司,货架厂,广州货架,塑料托盘价格,山东塑料托盘,求购塑料托盘,北京塑料托盘,苏州塑料托盘 ,宁波塑料托盘,折叠式仓储笼,天津仓储笼,苏州仓储笼,南京仓储笼。南京货架,南京货架厂,南京货架公司|上海货架,上海货架厂,上海货架公司|无锡货架,无锡货架厂,无锡货架公司|苏州货架,苏州货架厂,苏州货架公司|北京货架,北京货架厂,北京货架公司|货架公司,北京货架公司,宁波货架公司|广州货架,广州货架厂,广州货架公司|服装货架,服装货架设计,广州服装货架|超市货架,北京超市货架,上海超市货架|仓储货架,北京仓储货架,上海仓储货架|托盘货架,重型托盘货架,托盘货架公司|货架厂,广州货架厂,北京货架厂|仓库货架,北京仓库货架,上海仓库货架|深圳货架,深圳货架厂,深圳货架公司|重型货架,次重型货架,成都重型货架|精品货架,北京精品货架,广州精品货架|天津货架,天津货架厂,天津货架公司|角钢货架,角钢货架厂,万能角钢货架|沈阳货架,沈阳仓储货架,沈阳货架公司|青岛货架,青岛货架公司,青岛仓储货架|轻型货架,北京轻型货架,角钢轻型货架|山东货架,山东货架厂,山东货架公司|杭州货架,杭州货架厂,杭州货架公司|中型货架,上海中型货架,广州中型货架|济南货架,济南货架厂,济南货架公司|郑州货架,郑州货架厂,郑州货架公司|展示货架,上海展示货架,产品展示货架|库房货架,货架厂,北京库房货架|武汉货架,武汉货架厂,武汉货架公司|河南货架,河南货架厂,河南货架公司|货架设计,仓库货架设计,货架设计公司|不锈钢货架,深圳不锈钢货架,上海不锈钢货架|阁楼货架,阁楼式货架,阁楼货架公司|移动货架,电动移动货架,北京移动货架|物流货架,上海物流货架,仓储物流货架|佛山货架,佛山货架厂,佛山货架公司|定做货架,杭州定做货架,天津定做货架|江门货架,贯通式货架,防静电货架|宁波货架,宁波货架厂,宁波货架公司|石家庄货架,石家庄货架厂,石家庄货架公司|重庆货架,重庆货架厂,重庆货架公司|河北货架,河北货架厂,河北货架公司|哈尔滨货架,哈尔滨货架厂,哈尔滨货架公司|悬臂货架,悬臂式货架|图书货架,广东图书货架,深圳图书货架|浙江货架,浙江货架厂,浙江货架公司|货架制作,北京货架制作,上海货架制作|西安货架,西安货架厂,西安货架公司|木托盘,上海木托盘,天津木托盘|北京塑料托盘,苏州塑料托盘,宁波塑料托盘|上海塑料托盘,广东塑料托盘,青岛塑料托盘|武汉塑料托盘,山东塑料托盘,南京塑料托盘|钢制料箱,折叠式料箱,网格式料箱|上海仓储笼,南京仓储笼,天津仓储笼|仓储笼图片,折叠仓储笼,折叠式仓储笼|北京仓储笼,广州仓储笼,宁波仓储笼|货架|托盘|料箱|仓储笼|手推车|登高车|置物架|垃圾桶

SEO said...

北京托盘,南京托盘,上海托盘,苏州托盘,昆明托盘,重庆托盘,天津托盘,武汉托盘,湖南托盘,湖北托盘

Anonymous said...

roulette
free roulette systems
roulette strategies
free roulette
how to play roulette
tips for roulette
online roulette
roulette strategy
roulette system
how to win at roulette
casino roulette
play roulette online
horse racing
horse racing tips
horse racing betting
horse racing software
american horse racing systems
horse racing software systems
horse racing systems
horse racing picks
horse racing online
movies
bootleg movie download
watch movies online
online bootleg movie downloads
downloadable movies
divx full movies download
movie
online movies
download full version movies
download movies
pirated movies
forex
forex trading
forex killer
forex trading education
online forex trading
forex training
forex trading strategies
forex software
forex trading systems
learn forex
forex trading software
automated forex trading
currency trading forex trading made easy
killer forex
forex strategy
wow hacks
wow cheats
wow leveling guide
wow power leveling
world of warcraft
warcraft
world of warcraft cheats
world of warcraft download
world of warcraft hacks
warcraft cheats

Anonymous said...

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
钢托盘
堆垛架
钢制料箱
物流台车
手推车
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
钢托盘
堆垛架
巧固架
钢制料箱
物流台车
载物台车
手推车
手推车
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
次重型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
托盘式货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
阁楼货架
钢平台
精品货架
展示货架
悬臂式货架
抽屉式货架
模具货架
辊轮式货架
流利式货架
移动式货架
密集架
网片
隔离网
护栏
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
钢托盘
钢制托盘
置物柜
置物架
挂板架
物料整理架
单挂钩
直挂钩
螺丝刀架
扳手架
工作台
工作桌
线棒货架
输送辊道
辊道输送机
不锈钢制品
不锈钢推车
仓储笼
钢托盘
塑料托盘
钢制料箱
物流台车
堆垛架
静音手推车
手动液压托盘搬运车
登高车
手动堆高车
平台车
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
托盘
塑料托盘
钢制托盘
纸托盘
仓储笼
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
中量B型货架
库房货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
栈板
塑料托盘
塑料栈板
纸托盘
栈板
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
钢制料箱
钢质周转箱
网格式料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
托盘搬运车
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
轻型货架
中型货架
搁板式货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
托盘货架
托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
托盘
钢托盘
塑料托盘
钢制托盘
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
手推车
静音手推车
铁板手推车
物料架
整理架
挂板架
钢制料箱
钢制周转箱
网格式料箱
料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
电动托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
半电动堆高车
手动叉车
塑料周转箱
物流箱
塑料化工桶
塑料卡板箱
工具柜
上海工具柜
南京工具柜
抽屉柜
工作台
工作桌
南京工作台
上海工作台
刀具车
刀具柜
刀具架
刀具座
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
中量B型货架
库房货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
栈板
塑料托盘
塑料栈板
纸托盘
栈板
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
钢制料箱
钢质周转箱
网格式料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
托盘搬运车
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓储笼
仓库笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼

仓储笼
仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
托盘
托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
塑料托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
托盘
塑料托盘


货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司

货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架

货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
货架
中量型货架
次重型货架
货位式货架
重量型货架
横梁式货架
仓储货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
仓储货架
悬臂式货架
仓储货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
驶入式货架
仓库货架
库房货架
抽屉式货架
模具货架
仓库货架
库房货架
汽车4S店货架
汽配库货架
货架厂
货架公司
南京货架
上海货架
无锡货架
苏州货架
货架厂
货架公司
北京货架
天津货架
沈阳货架
大连货架
货架厂
货架公司
广州货架
深圳货架
宁波货架
杭州货架

南京货架
货架公司
货架厂
仓库货架
仓储货架
货架
货架

tablet pc tienda said...

Well, I do not actually imagine it is likely to have success.

Ajat Kurniawan said...

This was a fantastic article. Really loved reading your we blog post. The information was very informative and helpful...

Obat Sipilis Ampuh
Obat Kencing Nanah Ampuh
Obat Gonore Ampuh
Obat Raja Singa Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Wasir Ampuh
Obat Kondiloma Akuminata
Obat Klamidia Ampuh
Obat Herpes Genital
Pengobatan Bisul Kutil Kelamin
Obat Jengger Ayam Paling Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kemaluan

De Nature said...

thank you for your informative content... #keep sharing




Cara Mengobati Sipilis
Cara Mengobati Sipilis
Cara Mengobati Sipilis
Cara Mengobati Sipilis
Obat Sipilis Ampuh

Obat Ambeien Atau Wasir said...

Wasir,| Obat wasir, | Obat wasir alami | Obat wasir tradisional, | Obatwasir herbal | Obat wasir apotik | Obat wasir berdarah, | Obat wasir ampuh | Obat wasir luar | Obat wasir di apotik

Anonymous said...

Jual Obat Kutil Kelamin Wanita
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tanpa Operasi
Gejala Penyakit Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tanpa Operasi

Anonymous said...

Cara Mengobati Kutil Kelamin Pada Pria dengan mengunakan obat kutil kelamin herbal sehingga tanpa Operasi sembuh total karena saya sangat takut apabila mendengar kata operasi apakah ada pengobatan kutil kelamin yang dapat dicegah dari rumah untuk menyingkirkannya? Apa ada perawatan yang baik untuk kutil kelamin manjur apakah ada solusi alami dalam perawatan yang untuk ibu sedang hamil

Anonymous said...

tersedia untuk memperlakukan kutil dengan sendiri? Mungkin ini semua pertanyaan yang mungkin Anda pertanyakan pada diri Anda sendiri jika saat ini Anda memilki kutil Berikut dibawah ini pembahasan dari cara mengobati kutil kelamin tanpa operasi dengan menggunakan obat kutil kelamin tradisional paling manjur aman untuk ibu sedang hamil

Anonymous said...

bagi ibu yang sedang hamil ataupun untuk ibu yang sedang menyusui segera kontak kami untuk mendapatkan obat kutil kelamin terbaik de nature serta paling manjur cara mengobati kanker payudara dengan menggunakan obat kanker payudara paling manjur terbuat dari daun keladi tikus sarang semut serta dari daun sirsak insyaalah tanpa operasi kanker payudara dapat sembuh dengan cepat | obat wasir wasir | obat kutil kelamin segera kontak kami untuk mendapatkan pengobatan yang terbaik dari klinik herbal de nature untuk ibu sedang hamil