... on Jon Stewart, as he makes Bill Bennett look like a drunken fool on the gay marriage debate. Seriously, that was embarrassing.
My God, watching that, with clearly stated arguments and pinpoint attacks on his opponent's weak positions and logic, as he shreds a man who is twice his age and has spent his life in the pundit business, one has to wonder how Stewart does it even though he's not of those professional politicians with their spin doctors and consultants and carefully prepared position papers.
It's almost as if nothing more than a lifetime of performing comedy had honed his ability to make his point clearly, highlight and ridicule the idiocy of his opponents' argument simultaneously, and do so with a simple emotional resonance so effective his opponent is left helpless to respond.
But that would be NUTS.
Jon Stewart just beat Bill Bennett into wet tissue in a manner none of the professional liberal pundits or politicians who debate him on the chat shows have ever done.
We're out here, candidates. Professional communicators with proven track records. And unlike fucking DLC consultants, we can be bought off with beer and pizza.
Wednesday, June 07, 2006
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47 comments:
I have a man crush on Jon Stewart. We used to get the show down here in Australia on SBS. Don't anymore. I think John Howard found out there was inteligent political satire being promoted and had it cut. BTW - love the name Kung Fu Monkey. Just really great. Needs an animated childrens show. Kung Fu Monkey could be voiced by David Caradine.
Just an idea.
Fox News interview. The bow tie kid. Ever see it?
kool!!!!
I saw this episode yesterday too, and would agree with you except for the part where Stewart asserted the fallacy that homosexuality is purely biological and thus part of the human condition. Bennett did have some valid points worth discussing, but Stewart pulled an O'reilly and kept cutting him off.
Oh and Colbert human-on-manity... priceless!
That may well have been one of Jon's greatest interviews/slam fests to date. I was on the verge of falling asleep and sat straight up in bed when Jon so cleverly turned every argument. It was a beautiful thing.
... the fallacy that homosexuality is purely biological and thus part of the human condition.
There are so many things wrong with this statement that I don't know where to begin. So I'll just let it stand on its own and leave it at that.
I don't know how convincing he would be to someone who didn't already agree with him. He was unconvincing against the slippery slope argument, for example. (Perhaps because many human cultures practice polygamy successfully?)
The strongest argument for gay marriage in my book is just "You guys made all these arguments in the '50's. Against marriages between blacks and whites."
And of course -- how the hell does it affect my marriage if gay people get married?
www.welovechucknorris.it
Alex Epstein said: "He [Stewart] was unconvincing against the slippery slope argument, for example. (Perhaps because many human cultures practice polygamy successfully?"
That depends on what one defines as "successfully." Polygamy is generally a bad deal for the women because in cultures that practice polygamy, woman tend to be regarded as chattel. (Some of these are the same cultures that hold that a woman who has been raped must be killed because her rape is a dishonor to her family. WTF?!) From what I've read Mormonlike sects in this country that practice polygamy also treat women like chattel, because they hold that the man is the head (read dictator) of the family and not not only bosses his wives but also decides what other polygamists his daughters can marry.
Homosexuality is biological and anyone who states otherwise is merely mouthing empty mean words without evidence.
Also, anyone who believes that probably doesn't really know any gay folk.
Plus, it's a two edged sword - if a gay person is simply choosing to be gay rather than straight, than it stands to reason that a straight person could choose to be gay.
How about it, Seth, wanna smoke a pole just to prove your point?
seeing stewart instigate flop sweat on betamillion bennet and actually make that fat fuck squirm was political heaven. and he did it nicely the biggest genius was when he made his point about cheney and then let it lie there in front of bennet like a rhino on the coffee table.
seeing stewart instigate flop sweat on betamillion bennet and actually make that fat fuck squirm was political heaven. and he did it nicely the biggest genius was when he made his point about cheney and then let it lie there in front of bennet like a rhino on the coffee table.
please excuse the double post, blogger was making my trigger finger semi-itchy
watched it... sooo funny..ownage
jon stewart rules, and colbert is right on his tail. excellent post. in the mood to keep laughing? check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYKN3EFVQIM
count said...
Fox News interview. The bow tie kid. Ever see it?
Um, are you, perhaps, referring to the exchange that John Stewart had with Tucker Carlson on CNN's Crossfire?
Now, do I really want to get into the rest of this...
{sigh}
Stewart:I disagree, I think it's a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish.
I disagree, I think it's a debate about Constitutionality (equal rights/equal protection), discrimination (based on sexual orientation), hypocrisy, privacy and semantics. But not the way most people think it is.
Semantics: "gay marriage" is not synonymous with "same sex marriage".
Privacy: one would think that gay people would be especially concerned about letting the government into our bedrooms. But the only way I can see for the government to determine whether or not two people of the same sex are in fact gay is to do just that.
Hypocrisy: see Privacy above and Discrimination below.
Discrimination (based on sexual orientation): to use the example Alex posted above: laws banning interracial marriage were discriminatory because they gave a special privilege--i.e. the ability to marry white people--to members of a certain group--i.e. white people--while denying that same privilege to those who were not members of that certain group--i.e. non-whites couldn't marry white people.
Like Privacy above, one would think that gay people would also be especially concerned about discrimination based on sexual orientation, and yet, that's exactly what "gay marriage" does. To wit: it gives a special privilege--i.e. the ability to marry someone of the same sex--to members of a certain group--i.e. gay people--while denying that same privilege to those who are not members of that certain group--i.e. non-gays cannot marry someone of the same sex.
Constitutionality (equal rights/equal protection): essentially, laws should apply equally to everyone. So, either no one gets to marry someone of the same sex, or everyone gets to marry someone of the same sex regardless of their sexual orientation.
Now, we can certainly debate whether we're for or against "same sex marriage"--and I, personally, don't give a rip either way (although I do have a bit of a man crush on our host)--but "gay marriage", at best, is a misnomer, and at worst, it's political spin, a bait-and-switch, hypocritical, discriminatory and unconstitutional.
Mark
I can’t agree more. But, I do not have a “Man Crush” on John Stewart. However, I am knitting Mr. Stewart a sweater. A non-man-crush sweater. And as soon as he response to my constant phone calls we will have lunch. Screw his lawyers and their negativity.
First off, I've personally moved on from Stewart and have turned my man-crush attentions to Stephen Colbert. My mother is very upset, but I've been trying to assure her that we'll still raise the children Jewish, even though Stephen's devoutly Catholic. Such is love...
Speaking of which, while the current scientific evidence leans toward homosexuality as being innate, that's no guarantee that that's what scientific evidence will indicate in the future, which is why I think it's wrong to hinge the argument on that fact.
There's no reason that we should implicitly cede the idea that, if homosexuality isn't innate, then we can discourage it. If I were to say it succinctly, I'd say: "I don't think our government should decide who you can and cannot love".
Religion is a choice as well, and bias based on religion is outlawed (not that it's stopped Bush's Faith-Based initiative from only giving to Christian groups, but you get the idea). The phrasing that Stewart used, however, was a way of wiping away the genetic/non-genetic distinction, since religion is also a part of the "human condition", even though one is not genetically predisposed to be any particular religion.
Some people are born at either extreme of the Kinsey scale: they can't and won't voluntarily change their sexual behaviour under any circumstances. A fair number of people are near the extremes, but can adapt to gay or het sex in some circumstances (e.g. prison). And then there are the people born near the middle of the scale who may choose purely het, purely gay, or both kinds of behaviour depending on their environment, culture and life experiences.
So, yes, it's possible that some people "choose" to be gay or bi, but it's not because some people are gay via experience and others are gay via biology. Some people are just born in between and can switch-hit as they see fit. Most of us are more closely clustered to the poles.
What the hell are you people talking about?
You all missed the point talking about the nuances of gay marriage or Stewart's Spears of Longinus into the flabby hide of Bennet.
Are you trying to tell me I can have the Kung Fu Monkey, Stewart and god knows how many others are out there working for me for BEER and PIZZA?
I have BEER and PIZZA!
Call me. Soon I will set myself above the gods themselves!
maestro,
I'm a little confused, because your main problem with "gay marriage" seems to be a weird semantics issue that, to me, seems totally pointless.
First, I would argue that "gay marriage" IS synonymous with "same sex marriage" -- or at least, in common usage it is. I have no idea why you are drawing this distinction, as I am not aware of any precise commonly-used definitions of the two terms that would make them meaningfully different in any way.
Second, I don't understand why you think that gay people would have to "prove" gayness to get married any more than straight people have to prove their heterosexuality. I have never heard anyone propose that gay marriage would be limited only to those who pass some sort of "gay test."
Your idea that "gay marriage" means gay people get a special right, because only they will be allowed to marry people of the same sex, is absurd. Two people of the same sex would be perfectly free to get "gay married," just like any two people of opposite gender (including a gay man and a lesbian) can get married today. But why would they want to?? To make a point? As a marriage of convenience (which they could already do today, but maybe they only have friends of the same gender)?
Let's not get carried away here, Roberts. Stewart eviscerated Bennett in part because Bennett's got nothing to say and Stewart trampled on half the words out of his mouth. The best bit of Stewart's harangue was (I don't remember how this was phrased) his assertion that marriage is a positive good and therefore will benefit society when extended to gay couples.
But that viewpoint is already beautifully articulated by any number of critics, not least the sometimes despicable Andrew Sullivan, whose book on the subject, Virtually Normal, is quite good. Stewart is effective at least in part because he only has to trade sound-bites, and his entire career has been made out of sound-bites. But notwithstanding your well-deserved anti-DLC-type animus, Stewart's proven on many occasions to have considerably less unique or piercing insight into the human condition than any number of pundits. Just because as a 'newscaster' he keeps hugely idiotic company doesn't mean we should enshrine him in any politico-critical halls of fame.
I say this as an unabashed, devout fan of Stewart's; I think he's easily one of the best things on TV. But as his performances with McCain and (particularly, risibly) Kerry in 2004 demonstrated, he's a very hit-or-miss interviewer, and too often softpedals pretty much until he has no choice (and Bennett gives you no choice, since he's a bulbous miscreant).
Colbert's interviews are sometimes great, sometimes terrible; like Ringo Starr, both he and Stewart seem to pull up just at the last minute, backing off the killing stroke. Stewart's Crossfire smackdown is evidence of this - at the time I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen, now I can't watch it without thinking about how unreflective that whole experience seems. Stewart was a hero for doing what he did - really - but he's one of those guys who's obviously right about many of the things he says, but gives weak forms of the arguments for his positions. As with his 'Stop hurting America' spiel, in front of a different audience he'd have found the going considerably harder. (Further evidence of Colbert's sheer fucking chutzpah at the White House Correspondents Dinner.)
randbot,
You're making my point for me: straight people don't have to prove that they're straight because it's not called "straight marriage". If it were, then gay people would not be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex, and if you are gong to disallow something, it follows that there needs to be some kind of objective test. But, as you noted, this is not the case--gay people can marry someone of the opposite sex--thus, no test is necessary because the law does not discriminate based on sexual orientation.
While we simply call it "marriage", if we were to insert a modifier, the appropriate choice would not be "straight", but "opposite sex". i.e. "opposite sex marriage", meaning anyone can marry anyone else of the opposite sex, regardless of the sexual orientation of either party.
Just as there is a distinction between "straight marriage" and "opposite sex marriage", there is also a distinction between "gay marriage" and "same sex marriage".
As for "commonly-used definitions": I'd be willing to bet that, if you asked a bunch of people on the street to define "gay marriage", the majority would say, "It means that gay people can get married." I seriously doubt that the majority would say, "It means that any two people (of the same sex) can get married."
Mark
maestro,
I agree, there is a technical difference between the terms "gay marriage" and "same sex marriage." My point is simply that no one else in the debate is making this distinction, and thus as far as common use goes, they are absolutely synonymous.
The issue is that gay people wish to get married. In common parlance, instead of "the debate over allowing two people of the same gender to get married," everyone talks about "gay marriage" because it's a catchier phrase.
I turn the question to you: Find me someone in this debate who is proposing the creation of a legal entity called "gay marriage" which applies only to gay people, and I will happpily join you in condemning that proposal.
Instead, I think you will find that when people say "gay marriage," they are talking about either:
1) letting two gay people (or two people of the same sex, if you must) participate in the already-existing social/legal pact of marriage (like we did here in Mass.)
2) Creating a legal entity known as "civil unions" which mirrors all the existing rights/benefits of legal marriage, but which allows any two people to enter into. (thus avoiding the socially/religiously loaded term 'marriage')
"Divorce is not cause because 50% of marriages end in gayness"...
Hehe...yeah...
Like him, love him, or hate him...He steps up to the plate each time.
I don't think that John Howard would know what SBS was if it jumped up and whacked him on the arse with a wire coathanger. Of course I have no other theory as to why Jon Stewart was removed from Oz viewing. All man-crushes aside (c'mon guys, get a grip), we do need him back on teev in the antipodes. And soon.
That interview was some damn fine television. Damn fine. I *heart* Jon Stewart!
Marriage is basically a legal agreement between two people, which is why one needs a license - by denying a segment of the population the right to that license because of how they are born or their sex is discrimination, pure and simple.
Can you imagine it if we said only white people could be married?
I'm married to a woman of another race. The marriage I have now used to be illegal in a few of the southern states, who feared an intermingling of the races.
This wasn't that long ago - it was in my lifetime, as a matter of fact.
If you look back and read the arguments against interracial marriages back in those days, the arguments used against interracial marriages are the SAME ones used today against same sex marriages.
Those arguments are bigoted and ignornant, pure and simple. It was wrong to say people of different races couldn't marry and it's wrong to say that people of the same sex couldn't marry.
Wrong. America was founded on the idea that we are all created equal and have equal opportunity. It was an idea resisted at that time (particularly by the southern states) and had to be fought for, again and again, for women, for people of color and now for those whose sexual identity is known as gay.
The idea of America is right. Those who oppose equality and gay marriage are basically ignorant bigots, not so different from those against civil rights back in the sixties.
You heard me. You oppose gay marriage, that makes you a bigot. You don't want it to be true because of what it means about yourself, but that's what it is. Back in the day, the white men in power thought they knew best for the colored folk back in the sixties, too. They didn't view themselves as bigoted, either. They were wrong, too.
I just want to say I have beer and pizza.
I heard this funny thing on CBC Radio a month ago.
This female caller commented that she thought it was ludicrous that we rename Same-Sex Marriage a "civil union" so that it doesn't offend the heterosexist supremist society.
She said that that would be like re-naming women's right to vote "a say in the matter". It would mean the same thing, do the same thing, and women could still elect representatives to government, but Women wouldn't have the right to vote. Women would have "a say in the matter."
Maestro: congratulations on inventing a problem that is not -- full stop -- there.
I hate to bring objective reality into this discussion, but we live in a world where certain states inside this country, and several countries outside it, officially permit and endorse same-gender marriages. So, you know, there are actual laws to look at here, rather than the weird phantasms that live in your head. And among those actual laws (Massachusetts for full-on "marriage" in the US, and a handful of states with "domestic partnership" laws that basically equate to the same thing; Canada, Denmark and the Netherlands in the outlands), the number of them that contain some provision for verifying the gayness of the participants is zero. None. Zip. Nada. If two heterosexual men in Massachusetts want to get married for tax reasons, nothing stops them at all.
This constitutional "problem" exists in your head, and nowhere else. Please do not expect reasonable people to take you seriously when you "point it out."
Wow, a straw man and ad hominem in one post. Sorry, I can't let that go by.
I never said that there weren't same sex marriage laws on the books. Nor did I say that same sex marriage laws were, are or would be unconstitutional. Those "weird phantasms" exist only in your head and nowhere else.
The thing I'm railing against is the commutation of the terms "gay marriage" and "same sex marriage", and your post is a perfect example of why. Specifically, even randbot acknowledged that there is a technical difference between the terms "gay marriage" and "same sex marriage", so indiscriminately interchanging them (unnecessarily) confounds the issue, as it apparently did for you.
Why, then, would anyone want to do this? Well, as randbot also noted, "gay marriage" is a catchier phrase. But reliance on catch phrases is sometimes an indication of the weakness of an argument.
Also, a slanted catch phrase can allow an intellectually dishonest expositor to paint the opposition in a negative light. e.g. by calling it The Patriot Act, even though it has nothing to do with patriotism, the Bush administration can label opponents as "unpatriotic". Heck, even the so called Defense of Marriage Act implies that marriage is under attack (by evil doers), but we're the righteous defenders coming to the rescue.
So it saddens me to see supporters of same sex marriage lower themselves and the level of discourse, particularly because I don't think they need to; I think they could win the argument on the merits, so any obfuscation hurts them more than it helps.
Plus, it vexes me when a writer whose level of craft and acumen I admire falls victim to it.
Mark
Maestro,
You keep using twenty-five cent words when nickel words will do - and honestly, it's hard to really get a sense of who, what, where your argument is or your position, though I feel mine is pretty damn clear.
Marriage is a contract between two people and only between two people. To not allow citizens the right to that contract because of their race, sex or anything like that is bigotry, pure and simple.
Are you arguing against gay folk having the same rights as other folk, or for it?
In the idea of America, we are all equal in terms of the rights afforded to all. If certain citizens are not allowed those rights because of sex or race, then we are not fulfilling our American ideal. We're letting it down.
maestro
Your argument, in addition to being unneccesary and primarily designed to be argumentative, is based on a fallacy. You state as a matter of fact that same sex marriage is commonly referred to as "gay marriage." As evidence, you point to the "fact" that if you asked a bunch of random people, they would say the issue is about gay marriage.
On what do you base this? I hear the term "same sex marriage" as much as "gay marriage". And it really doesn't matter how people refer to it. The fact is, if gays didn't want to marry this debate wouldn't even exist. So as a practical matter, it is about gay mariage. But that doesn't mean the "gay" part would be enshrined in law. I think most people would agree that the 1964 Civil Rights Act was about blacks. But there's nothing in the act that says it only applies to black people. So arguing that when gay people use the term gay marriage they're inviting the government into their bedroom is ridiculous.
maestro,
first, let me thank you for existing. Although I feel like we're basically on the same side and this argument is kind of pointless, at least it's something to do until Rogers posts again.
As you noted, I do agree that there is a technical difference between the terms "gay marriage" and "same sex marriage." However, my larger point (which you did not note) is that I have heard no one (and I mean nobody) make hay of this technical difference, except for you. So I'm not sure how much it's confounding the issue. I mean, technically it's incorrect to say "ATM Machine" because ATM stands for Automated Teller Machine. But everyone knows what I'm talking about; no one thinks that I'm actually referring to some sort of other machine that makes ATMs, or something.
But if we're going to get all hot and bothered over technicalities and try to society from using a popular but incorrect term, can we please start with "nucular"? Or the "your/you're" thing? That one really bugs the crap out of me.
Joshua:
We agree on the 'American ideal of equality', as you put it. And so, in answer to your question, I am for everyone--gay, straight, bi, trans, black, white, yellow, red, brown, male, female, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, druid, atheist, etc.--having the same Rights as everyone else. That's why I don't have a problem with the way things are now under "opposite sex marriage"--where anyone can marry anyone else of the opposite sex regardless of which or how many of the previously listed categories they belong to--nor do I have a problem with the way things are (or would be) under "same sex marriage"--where, similarly, anyone can (or would be) able to marry anyone else of the same sex regardless of which or how many of the previously listed categories they belong to.
If you're interested in where I think the problem is, feel free to read the third and especially fourth paragraph(s) below.
ChrisO:
Sorry, I'm not following your line of reasoning. First, note that the "commonly-used definitions" thing was a response to something RandBot posted. I did not base my argument on it.
Second, you undercut your own argument: the only way that the following statement (which you attribute to me) can be false, "You state as a matter of fact that same sex marriage is commonly referred to as "gay marriage." and the following statement of yours can be true, "I hear the term "same sex marriage" as much as "gay marriage". is for the members of the population who are using the term "gay marriage" to be using it to mean something other than "same sex marriage". And I don't think that's a road you want to go down because it would mean that the people using the term "gay marriage" do want the "gay" part enshrined in law. (Please note: I'm not saying this is actually the case in reality, I'm just following a line of reasoning--that is not my own--to its logical conclusion.)
Even though "whites only" laws (e.g. white marriage, if you will) were discriminatory, blacks didn't respond with "blacks only" laws that would've been equally discriminatory. (i.e. they didn't try to pass a "black marriage" law where only blacks could marry blacks.) Instead, they fought for, and I think it's worth noting, actually won, the Right for anyone to marry anyone else (granted, of the opposite sex) regardless of race.
The lesson, then, that I think the Gay Rights movement should take from the Civil Rights movement is to not push the term "gay marriage" (which can be misconstrued to mean that only gays would be allowed to marry other gays), but instead to push the term "same sex marriage" (which much more clearly reflects the intent of allowing anyone to marry anyone else of the same sex regardless of the sexual orientation of either party).
RandBot:
I'm glad someone is getting something out of all of this bandwidth of Rogers' we're wasting. (And Rogers, dude, feel free to tell me to shut the hell up anytime.) That said...
You're ATM Machine analogy is flawed because the two terms mean the same thing. Imagine, instead, that someone asked you for a ride to the bank, and you obliged, passing several ATMs along the way, only to find out that what they really meant was that they needed to go to an ATM Machine. Wouldn't you be a little annoyed? Because, although banks and ATMs have some things in common, they are not the same. The two terms are not synonymous. And you would assume that when someone says bank, they actually mean bank and not ATM Machine.
But let's say it still doesn't matter to you or anyone else except me. Bank, ATM, whatever, we'll figure it out eventually. Given that we're agreed that there is a technical difference, and I've expressed my preference, eventhough it truly doesn't matter to you at all, what would it say about you if you went ahead and ignored my wishes for no good reason?
Mark
Matt,
I read the other paragraphs and damned if I know what your problem is - it's seems, no offense, that you simply just like to argue.
Marriage isn't defined as "opposite sex" marriage legally - it is in some states, not in others, which is part of the push now by the federal government to make it only availabe for opposite sexes, rather than same sexes - so you're making a mistake by assuming marriage is strictly interpreted as opposite sex only. If it was, Dubya wouldn't have to explain to people in his pidgeon english that he thinks only opposite sex couples should have the legal benefits of marriage but he's not basing that on legal grounds but his faulty religious ones.
Legally, it's a contract between to people and religion doesn't play a part in it. I'm married and no church had anything to do with it. It was simply a license I paid for, no more, no less.
Make no mistake, that's what marriage is, a legal joining of two people and all the benefits that entails - it's a legal document and anyone should have it available to them, regardless of their race, religion or sexual preference.
Now if you think gays should have the same rights as straights, I don't know what the hell you're starting a fight over and honestly, I'm starting not to care. Either state what you mean simply and clearly or just get over whatever technical doodad you're hung up on within the language - because this issue is TOO important to fritter away arguing about small bullshit things when the larger issue of individual American rights hangs in the balance. Dig?
My last comment I directed it to Matt, but it was meant for Mark, aka Maestro - to anyone named Matt, my apologies.
Semantics, semantics, everywhere. And not a line to read.
I knew there was a reason I loved Jon Stewart.
I just didn't realize how very, very much I love him.
Actually, my point is that "ATM" and "ATM Machine" do NOT mean the same thing -- technically, an "Automated Teller Machine machine" would be a machine that makes ATMs, or something like that. But everyone ignores my slight technical error and knows what I'm talking about anyway. If you want to get all technical and literal, there is no end to holes you can poke in the way people speak ("Hey, in the future when you leave the room for a short period you should not say 'back in a second' because you were actually gone for several minutes and this could confuse some people!")
However, I see your point, and now that you've reframed your argument*, I agree: Using the term "same-sex marriage" is preferable because it is more precise and leaves no room for (perhaps willful) misrepresentation by opponents.
That being said, people using the two terms interchangeably doesn't really bother me, and I don't think it's a significant issue.
I don't see the problem of the two terms
*You know, if you had just said "people shouldn't use 'gay marriage' and 'same sex marriage' interchangeably; they're not the same," I don't think anyone would've gotten on your case. Your original post, however, seemed to imply that there was some sort of "gay-only marriage" movement out there that you opposed, rather than a "same sex marriage" movement that you just didn't like the inaccurate term they were using.
If I ever hear a fellow conservative say "hey, I support gay marraige - between a gay man and a lesbian woman!" I'll know that all of these posts weren't a waste of time. Or realize that he or she is just making an odd joke.
Until then...
This discussion totally makes me want to have a three way with Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert.
I really love Jon Stewart. Thank you for the story. It made me laugh :D It would be better, if you added some pictures here.
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