Thursday, June 01, 2006

Electoral College 2



















On further consideration, I should confess I have an ulterior, somewhat more "meta" motivation for wanting to see the Electoral College gone. Beside its fundamental betrayal of equal representation ...

I HATE THAT GODDAM MAP.

That winner-take-all electoral map delivers to an incredibly lazy media and pundit class a ready-made narrative. Unfortunately, the Red State/Blue State narrative also happens to be monstrously destructive, culturally. Painting massive swaths of the country one color (be it red or blue), while ignoring the actual number of voters in each state completely distorts the actual political balance in this country -- specifically, how moderate most of the country is.

It empowers fundamentalists of all stripes, because visual cues are enormously powerful and that color dichotomy implants resonances of ideological dichotomy that affect the framework through which the media present information and we to a great degree perceive it, then fix it into our own world-view, our mental operating system.

Mark Newman discusses some more accurate representations here, but there's a problem. While the actual national difference of 3% between the two candidates is public record, I propose, memetically (and I use that word quite precisely) the incredibly distorted original Electoral College map is now the iconograph lodged in most Americans' mind, and is therefore more effective in replicating both itself and other ideas based on the faulty perception it engenders. Newman's maps corrected for population are non-intuitive and therefore memetically useless.

Hell, even setting aside the overall result, just look at how close those state votes were: There was a 5% or less difference in Republican/Democratic Presidential votes in the following states tossed onto that monolithic all or nothing map.

2004 - actual difference vote difference 3%

Colorado 5%
Florida 5%
Iowa 1%
Michigan 4%
Minnesota 3%
Nevada 2%
New Hampshire 1%
New Mexico 1%
Ohio .... okay, 2%
Oregon 4%
Pennsylvania 3%
Wisconsin 1%

2000 - actual vote difference 1%
Florida 0%
Iowa 1%
Maine 5%
Michigan 5%
Minnesota 2%
Missouri 3%
New Hampshire 1%
New Mexico 0%
Ohio 4%
Oregon 0%
Pennsylvania 5%
Tennessee 4%
Washington 5%
Wisconsin 0%
... oh, oh, Ralph. We so owe you a hug.

As we can see, the Republicans ought to be pretty pissed off at the misrepresentation created by the Electoral Map memetic component too -- there are some blue states that ought to read a lot more purple than we assume, the same way that massive swath of red seems to destroy the idea that there are any moderates democrats in the Midwest. Start comparing the populations of those swing states to the smaller states that went hard one way or another, and the lie of perception becomes even more stark.

This is all old, actually ancient ground, of course, but I prefer to tread it before leaping off the cliff. The cliff is this, and it is indeed a little airy-fairy for my usual tone: the Electoral Map on its own is the most destructive memetic component in modern American culture.

Feel free to mock.


The problem is, this:

pepie2004


is not the same as this:




















The first is the reality, the second is the perception of reality many people have internalized and are operating under culturally, socially, and politically. It is also a ferociously efficient image, if you get my drift, in the evolution of idea-space. While the Electoral College is simply a bad idea whose time has long passed, weirdly its pictorial representation is a cultural wrecking ball.

100 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yay for this, John.

I live in Oregon, and pretty much the only thing that makes it a "blue state" is Portland and the Willamette Valley area. The rest of the state is very conservative. While our electoral votes may have gone to Gore in '00 and Kerry in '04, we also passed one of the "marriage protection amendments".

(Oddly enough, one of the major news sites had the vote counts for Measure 39 switched on their scoreboard; all night long it showed that amendment was losing, but when the official tally was posted the next day the counts were swapped. All of the other sites were correct...)

I think the only way the whole "red vs. blue" meme could be more destructive politically would be if they'd swapped the colors, so Democrats would be the "reds"...

GM Doug said...

Non an American so shouldn't really comment on your political election system - but that map doesn't look right to me.

It's very black/white red/blue and to be honest more like a good/bad thing. But hey two party nation without a middleing third party lets that happen.

Anyway.... Where was I ? Oh the map.. What's the map look like if it's broken down into districts? So you know there's lots of red/blue bits for each state? Makes it difficult to put on a screen however as the US is just too big to allow for real pixelation - maybe HD will solve that problem.

Hadyn said...

GM Doug: Follow the Mark Newman link, he's broken it down with lots of variations.

Jay in Oregon: What are the actual stats for Oregon? The Census Bureau's population estimates would suggest that Oregon might be less Republican leaning than you think. Also remember that "conservative" does not mean "Republican voting". A consesrvative voter may want economic stability and believe that the Democrats offer that, but also vote for a "marriage protection amendment". (This is an example not a policy statement by the way, I'm not looking to piss people off. What is a "marriage protection ammendment")

I think the map needed to start out at the bottom level with each individual voter coloured how they voted. This should make for a lovely purple map (3% more violet than indigo).

Selah

It seems that memetic representations of data are becoming more prevalent. If you read a newspaper from 50 years ago you will find the tone of the writing to be vastly different to today. Graphics of little helicopters over Iraq tell us what is happening in the war. Are we too lazy or to busy.

Rogers, how's that compound coming along?

Anonymous said...

gm doug,

I've seen a more detailed break-down for the 2000 election. I believe that it was broken down by county. It had the unfortunate effect of making the map look MORE overwhelmingly Red/Republican as the urban areas were typically Democrat/Blue and the Rural area were typically Republican/Red. So although the election was very close in overall numbers, the map gave the appearance that the country was overwhelmingly Republican with tiny enclaves of Democrats due to the fact that the population of the U.S. is concetrated in urba areas.

I remember hearing Rush Limbaugh talk about this map and filtering it into his typical articial reality that he presents to his listoners about how much they are the Real Heart of America (TM). Just look at how much space they took up!

Unknown said...

that's why I'm using the word. It's not cool. It's just the right word.

Anonymous said...

If you broke it down on a state level here in Ohio, you'd see Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Toledo are big islands of blue floating in a sea of red. Whaddya know, lots of people live on those islands of blue, though slightly less than the number of people swimming in the sea of red!

Last year, when his program was still on the air here, I remember Glenn Beck (out of Philly) bitching about how bad it was that PA went Democratic, when only Pittsburgh and Philadelphia vote solidly Democratic. I have news for him: a hell of a lot of people in PA live in those two cities.

Unknown said...

precisely my point -- tthe electoral system allows, no ENCOURAGES resentment, because you feel your vote is stolen away. Because it is. Going to straight-up numbers helps defuse that issue.

MoXmas said...

The arbitrariness is frustrating, but seesm to be wrapped up less in the concept of the electoral college than the concept of States themselves. My Democratic vote in Indiana was always thrown away for President, usually for Senator, and often for Congressman. Yet I commuted every day into Chicago, where my Dem vote could have counted for Obama, or Durbin, or even Gov. Blogo.

Pretty strange line to form.

Just the reverse of all the bitter Staten Islanders who feel like their votes get thrown onto the pyre of Brooklyn and Manhattan Dem machines.

Jennie said...

Good stuff here and I totally agree. However, Americans tend to be stupid people (present company excluded), just take a look at all those Reds...I'm wondering what you (on your own, now) would propose take the place of our fine EC?

Jennie said...

Good stuff here and I totally agree. However, Americans tend to be stupid people (present company excluded), just take a look at all those Reds...I'm wondering what you (on your own, now) would propose take the place of our fine EC?

Anonymous said...

Another website with several different breakdowns:

http://www.polidata.org/

Mark

dbquijano said...

the only problem is that to reform, it would take a constitutional ammendment. it won't happen.

Anonymous said...

...or instead of a Constitutional Amendment:

(a) increase the size of the House, considerably. Act of Congress.

(b) proportional EC disbursement, instead of all/nothing system in nearly all states right now. Individual state discretion.

(c) EC disbursement based on outcome of popular vote nation-wide, not state-wide. Proposal being considered in a number of states this year. Individual state discretion, again.

GM Doug said...

Thanks for those links guys, great reading. Love the size / shape change ones. Sadly will confuse people.

The purple isn't too bad an option.

What I could do with some info on is if the rules being introduced in California etc had been applied last time how much of a different would it had made? I presume Bush would still have won?

What many of the organisations should be aiming for is a way to allow for 3rd/4th Parties into the equation.

But then I believe in making voting manditory - but also with a "Non of the above" box for all protest votes. If the winners (as part of a coalition if need) fail to get 50% of the vote then the term of office for the winners is automatically shorted by 50%.

Harsh I'm sure but it would open up the political scene to a more fractured political system - encourage independants and single issue candidates. And as we all know the more voices in a parlament or government the less they can actually do which wasn't on the original manifesto.

Norman said...

nice writeup, unfortunately I don't vote YET on national election since living in Cali, Dems will most of the time win. But reform will probably be out of the question to change the electoral college system.

Anonymous said...

are you sure that's a political map? with the exception of only 4 states (IN, OH, VT, MN) it's also a correct "my state borders the north atlantic, the pacific or a great lake" map.

maybe there's something in the water....

Anonymous said...

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And yes, I realize that this only reinforces John's point, but dammit, funny's funny!

Unknown said...

I also believe voting should be mandatory, by the way, although you'll never, culturally, swing the US to that.

Direct election, like EVERY OTHER ELECTED OFFICIAL IN THE COUNTRY would be fine for me. Lacking that, the suggested scheme of EV's being assigned to the popular vote winner will work in an awkwardly procedural way.

Remember, Senators weren't elected until , I think 1913, based on similar ideas the Founding Father had for their roles. That is arguably a much bigger change -- and also made for all the right reasons. Ironically, the EC exists primarily to avoid the possibility of election tampering and conspiracies. Heh.

Anonymous said...

And how do you feel about instant run-off or preferential voting?

I think there's more than just the electoral college that needs to be reformed, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad start.

Count Grecula said...

While your points about the 3% difference make a lot of sense, and I wouldn't dissmiss them, just to be contrarian, I'd like to wonder out loud if the electoral college is a good thing, but the primary system is a bad thing.

The primary system tends get candidates playing to the extremes of either party, thus framing the debates in the most divisive way from the beginning. Then there's the big rush to the middle at the end to get moderates to switch. Moderate candidates with passion and intelligence get left out of the process.

At any rate, a good thing to remember that a great deal of the people in those red states are moderate people, just like some of the blue staters. But a electoral map that shows a decisive victory, I think, can be good for at least giving the appearence of consensus. Also, wheighting things towards the interests of states, rather than individuals, should not be a good that is readily dismissed.

Maybe your right though, a one person one vote race might change the campaigns for the better. Unfortunately there's only one way to find out!

Unknown said...

Edwards actually discusses both points you bring up -- mandate and state interests --, and dismisses both of them pretty handily with the research.

While the primary system is flawed, there is a deeper issue with the EC -- it fundamental violates equal representation. Period. That uts it first on the agenda. And I would also point out that in the most recent election where the EC failed, 2000, both candidates were notable for being moderates (at the time) in their parties.

Anonymous said...

Did God really damn that map?

Anonymous said...

Umm... is anyone going to talk about the purpose of the electoral college and how the last two elections were shining examples of how important it is to our presidential election??? No? Just going to keep saying it's "unfair" and "stealing your vote"???

ok then.

And here I thought we were a nations of states... Whoops! My bad! As much as I love New York City, I don't think that it should get to dictate the policy for the rest of the entire friggin country simply because they have a large population. New York? Sure. However the people in Idaho don't want the president elected by New York City and vice-versa. Thank you Electoral College... Thank you.

La Russophobe said...

This comment is remarkably ignorant. John Kennedy failed to get a majority of the popular vote and, if a majority had been required with no Electoral College to save him, there would have been a runoff election that Nixon could easily have won. Since World War II more left-wing presidents have taken office without a majorty than Republicans, and only one Democrat in all of American history has been reelected with a majority of the popular vote, while five republicans have done it. The Electoral College is far more valuable to the left than the right, and the fact that the left doesn't understand this and tries to abolish it goes a long way to explaining why they are excluded from the corridors of power

Geoff Thorne said...

It's not a Left Right issue. The politics of the 60's and 70s can't be used to describe modern demographics.

If the proxies were abolished both parties would be forced to deal with the increased complexities of the REAL political spread in this nation.

There is nothing more pure than the populace beaing able to vote for thier leader. We do it locally and the way we choose the electors is by counting individual votes so, why keep the filter?

I'll take my chances that Americans, who are currently split nearly straight down the middle on all the major issues as defined by the big two, would shake out considerably differently if their votes actually mattered.

Then every vote really would count. A President could win by a margin of 1. Litterally. Bob Smith in Debuke could cast the single ballot that would change the world.

You don't think that would change things? Keep dreaming.

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Cara menyembuhkan kutil kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tanpa Operasi
Obat kutil kelamin untuk pria
Obat kutil kelamin untuk wanita
Cara mengatasi kutil kelamin
Cara mengobati kutil kelamin
Cara menyembuhkan kutil kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tanpa Operasi
Obat kutil kelamin untuk pria
Obat kutil kelamin untuk wanita
Cara mengatasi kutil kelamin
Cara mengobati kutil kelamin
Cara menyembuhkan kutil kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Ampuh
Obat Kutil Kelamin Tanpa Operasi
Cara Mengobati Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin Untuk Wanita
Obat Kutil Kelamin Untuk Pria
Cara Menyembuhkan Kutil Kelamin
Cara Mengatasi Kutil Kelamin
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Di Bibir Memek
Cara Menghilangkan Kutil Di Kemaluan | Vagina, Anus, Atau Penis Tumbuh Kutil
Obat Menghilangkan Kutil Di Bibir Vagina
Tumbuh Kutil di Penis Dan Anus | Obat Herbal Penyakit Kelamin
Kenapa Ada Kutil Di bibir Vagina ? Cara mengobatinya Bagaimana?
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Wanita
Obat Kutil di Kemaluan Pria | PENYAKIT KELAMIN JENGGER AYAM
Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Bibir Memek
Tanda-Tanda Kutil Kelamin Condyloma Acuminata Pada Ibu Hamil
Cara Menghilangkan kutil Di Kelamin Pria

Unknown said...

Jika berbicara mengenai pengertianya maka penyakit jengger ayam ini diketahui adalah penyakit menular seksual yang penyebabnya berkaitan dengan Human Papilloma Virus (HPV). Penyakit ini juga dapat menampilkan diri dalam berbagai bentuk, namun secara umum kutil yang bertumbuh pada bagian genital penderita berbentuk benjolan daging yang berwarna, dan terjadi pada sekitar alat vital. Siapa saja bisa menderita penyakit ini baik yang pria maupun wanita

Anonymous said...

Penyakit ini umumnya muncul karena penderita mengejan terlalu keras pada saat buang air besar. Dengan mengejan terlalu keras, maka pembuluh darah di sekitar anus dapat melebar dan pecah menimbulkan infeksi dan pembengkakan yang berakhir pada masalah wasir atau ambeien tersebut.

Unknown said...

Penderita Penyakit kondiloma atau Kutil Kelamin yang telah terinveksi disarankan untuk segera melakukan pengobatan secepat mungkin sebelum Virus HPV penyebab kutil kelamin makin banyak berkembang biak di dalam sel darah makin lama dibiarkan akan memperparah kondisi organ vital karena kutil kelamin akan terus membesar sehingga terlihat seperti jengger ayam untuk penderita yang baru tertular kurang dari satu bulan biasanya akan lebih cepat ditanggulangi obat kutil kelamin Paling ampuh dari De Nature dan terbaik ada hanya di http://obatkutildikemaluan.blogdetik.com/ untuk mendapatkan informasi yang lebih jelas mengenai pengobatan kutil pada kelamin silahkan kontak langsung di nomer 0852 808 77 999 atau 0859 7373 5656 Bagaimana mengobati Ambeien itu sendiri. pengobatan yang terbaik untuk Ambeien adalah dari luar dan dalam sehingga Ambeien benar benar tuntas dan tidak akan kambuh lagi. obat Ambeien terbaik "Ambeclear dari De Nature" AlamiAdalah obat Ambeien herbal yang memang terbaik untuk mengobati Ambeien, dan sudah terdaftar di badan obat dan makanan (BPOM) dengan nomer registrasi POM TR: 133 374 041. terbuat dari bahan alami antara lain terdiri Daung Ungu, Mahkota Dewa dan Kunyit Putih.

Unknown said...

Penderita Penyakit kondiloma atau Kutil Kelamin yang telah terinveksi disarankan untuk segera melakukan pengobatan secepat mungkin sebelum Virus HPV penyebab kutil kelamin makin banyak berkembang biak di dalam sel darah makin lama dibiarkan akan memperparah kondisi organ vital karena kutil kelamin akan terus membesar sehingga terlihat seperti jengger ayam untuk penderita yang baru tertular kurang dari satu bulan biasanya akan lebih cepat ditanggulangi obat kutil kelamin Paling ampuh dari De Nature dan terbaik ada hanya di http://obatkutildikemaluan.blogdetik.com/ untuk mendapatkan informasi yang lebih jelas mengenai pengobatan kutil pada kelamin silahkan kontak langsung di nomer 0852 808 77 999 atau 0859 7373 5656 Bagaimana mengobati Ambeien itu sendiri. pengobatan yang terbaik untuk Ambeien adalah dari luar dan dalam sehingga Ambeien benar benar tuntas dan tidak akan kambuh lagi. obat Ambeien terbaik "Ambeclear dari De Nature" AlamiAdalah obat Ambeien herbal yang memang terbaik untuk mengobati Ambeien, dan sudah terdaftar di badan obat dan makanan (BPOM) dengan nomer registrasi POM TR: 133 374 041. terbuat dari bahan alami antara lain terdiri Daung Ungu, Mahkota Dewa dan Kunyit Putih.

ok said...

obat kencing nanah De Nature

Obat Kencing Nanah Gang jie dan Gho Siah.Gonore adalah penyakit menular seksual (PMS) yang disebabkan oleh bakteri  Neisseria gonorrhoeae. Bakteri ini dapat ditularkan dari orang ke orang selama aktivitas seksua.Untuk Pemesanan Obat Penyakit Kelamin Kencing Nanah di 0812-2854-1999 atau Pin BB 53E87F23

Unknown said...

Penyakit kencing nanah bisa disebabkan oleh beberapa faktor seperti seks bebas, penularan, virus hpv, lingkungan, gaya hidup dan lainnya, Maka dari itu kita harus waspada dengan penyakit kencing nanah ini, karena penyakit kencing nanah sangatlah berbahaya, Namun untuk anda yang menderita penyakit kencing nanah, maka anda tidak perlu khawatir,

Unknown said...

Bagi anda yang sedang mencari obat herbal buat kencing nanah atau gonore, kami sarankan untuk memilih obat herba dari De Nature dengan nama Gang jie dan Gho Siah sebagai pengobatan alternatif tradisional alami untuk kencing nanah atau gonore.

Unknown said...

Berapa Harga untuk Obat Wasir Ambeien alami daun ungu AmbeclearAmbeien adalah gangguan atau penyakit yang terjadi pada saluran pencernaan manusia

Unknown said...

Berapa Harga untuk Obat Wasir Ambeien alami daun ungu AmbeclearAmbeien adalah gangguan atau penyakit yang terjadi pada saluran pencernaan manusia

Cara Mengobati Wasir Ambeien said...

berhitung yuk......... 123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930

Unknown said...

Bukan hanya pengobatan medis saja tapi ada juga pengobatan rumah alami yang dapat digunakan untuk menyingkirkan penyakit kutil kelamin ini. Intinya, karena kutil ini muncul di daerah yang sensitif, maka anda harus mencari pengobatan yang terbaik pada kulit Anda dan jika diperlukan juga dibantu dengan tenaga medis yang professional. Sebab dokter akan menjadi sumber informasi yang baik untuk mengobati penyakit ini.

Unknown said...

Genital wart atau yang dikenal dengan sebutan penyakit kutil genital adalah merupakan diantara penyakit menular seksual yang lumayan banyak penderitanya. Penyakit tersebut timbul faktor dikarenakan adanya infeksi dimana disebabkan oleh aktivitas seksual yang kurang sehat misalnya sering berganti-ganti pasangan.Virus yang mengakibatkan terjadinya penyakit kutil kelamin adalah virus human papilloma virus (HPV). Seperti yang telah dijelaskan, virus tersebut dapat ditularkan faktor bergonta-ganti pasangan

obar herbal manjur alami said...

MANTAB * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *******

Unknown said...

Cara yang sering di lakukan untuk menghilangkan kutil kelamin adalah dengan cara pembedahah atau operasi, cara ini tentu memerlukan dana yang tidak sedikit. metode Pilihan pembedahan yang dapat Anda lakukan

Unknown said...

Cara yang sering di lakukan untuk menghilangkan kutil kelamin adalah dengan cara pembedahah atau operasi, cara ini tentu memerlukan dana yang tidak sedikit. metode Pilihan pembedahan yang dapat Anda lakukan

Unknown said...

MANTAB * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * **********

Pengobatan Ambeien Wasir said...

wkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwk

Pengobatan Ambeien Wasir said...

wkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwk

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillaahirrohmaanirrokhiim ???????????????????????????????????

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillaahirrohmaanirrokhiim ???????????????????????????????????

Unknown said...

Kadang disertai
dengan sakit saat kencing, perih, organ intim terasa panas menyiksa,
gatal,..

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... *************************

Unknown said...

Kadang disertai
dengan sakit saat kencing, perih, organ intim terasa panas menyiksa,
gatal,..

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... *********************************

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... *********************************

Unknown said...

Sekitar Vagina Tumbuh Daging, Berbahayakah? Kutil Pada Kepala Penis mirip bunga kol atau jengger ayam, Merupakan Penyakit Yang diakibatkan Oleh Virus.Kutil kelamin, atau disebut juga condyloma acuminata, adalah kutil atau daging berwarna kulit atau keabuan yang tumbuh di sekitar alat kelamin dan

obar herbal manjur alami said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ..................

obar herbal manjur alami said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ........................

Unknown said...

penyakit yang ditularkan melalui hubungan seks : vaginal, oral dan anal. Juga dapat menular melalui persentuhan kulit dengan daerah yang terinfeksi.

Unknown said...

penyakit yang ditularkan melalui hubungan seks : vaginal, oral dan anal. Juga dapat menular melalui persentuhan kulit dengan daerah yang terinfeksi.

Unknown said...

Obat Ambeien Resep Dokter Ambeclear dari De Nature Ampuh Tuntaskan Ambeien Sampai Tuntas

Unknown said...

Obat Ambeien Resep Dokter Ambeclear dari De Nature Ampuh Tuntaskan Ambeien Sampai Tuntas

Cara Mengobati Wasir Ambeien said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ........................

Unknown said...

Sebelum kita membahas tentang pengobatan ambeien, dalam kesempatan ini
saya ingin menjelaskan sekilas tentang ambeien, agar kita semua bisa
memahami benar apa itu penyakit ambeien

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... ***************************

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... ***************************

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim .........................

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ......................................

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... ************************************

obar herbal manjur alami said...

???????????????????????????????????????

Unknown said...

???????????????????????????????

obar herbal manjur alami said...

1111111111111111111111111

obar herbal manjur alami said...

111111111111111111111111111111

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

111111111111111111111

obar herbal manjur alami said...

111111111111111111111111111111

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

111111111111111111111

Obat Keputihan Herbal Alami said...

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111

obar herbal manjur alami said...

111111111111111

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

1111111111111111111111111111111

Unknown said...

manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur

obar herbal manjur alami said...

alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami alami

Anonymous said...

Wasir atau dikenal juga dengan ambeien merupakan salah satu jenis penyakit

Anonymous said...

Wasir atau dikenal juga dengan ambeien merupakan salah satu jenis penyakit

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

obat ambeien wasir paling manjur mengobati penyakit wasir ambeien tanpa efek samping terbuat dari bahan alami herbal seperti daun ungu mahkota dewa kunyit putih