Faithful Assistant actually had the two men beside her get up and leave after 35 minutes, because of the "politics". Which, all in all, was a good thing, because they were talking nonstop, and were therefore fuckwits.
So it has come to our attention that some people are not able to get past the "politics" of V and enjoy the flick. Which is odd, as the "politics" consist pretty much of "Fascism is bad." I'm not one to make blanket judgements, but you cannot simultaneously root for Luke Skywalker and be offended at V without revealing something ... curdled in your understanding of your self and your relation to the world around you.
But, for our friends who find it absolutely ridiculous that a Western government would suspend posse comitatus, set up secret prisons, engage in torture and attempt sexual/cultural control, please substitute the following monologue for Natalie Portman's opening speech:
"In the year 2015, the Vartususians came.
Led by the United States, the world fought against the alien invaders bravely. But their Quadtronic Quantum Tambabulator technology was too much for us.
The aliens are gone now, off to enslave other worlds. But they left behind a government of cowardly collaborators, all implanted with alien brain-parasites. The traitors to the human race now rule the earth at their galactic masters' command. The people are too timid to rise up, as they believe the human government is there to protect them from the Vartusians.
If only someone, someone who'd read, say, a lot of Thomas Jefferson, would lead the fight."
There. There will still be a few rough edges, but you can zip past them thoughtlessly enough.
55 comments:
Heh - you know, when the most recent Star Wars movie came out a lot of folks were upset that the movie was "political" - that the portrayal of the Emperor was some kind of dig at the Bush administration.
I say, if you see a brutal, fascist society on the screen and you identify it as being an attack on your "politics" - that doesn't say very much about your political stance, does it? Or maybe it says quite a lot, and you should think about it.
And 35 minutes in isn't where I would have pegged the "politics" comment. IIRC, at 35 minutes in, V's England is still fairly "generic" in its fascism. Maybe they were objecting to the portrayal of "The Voice" that was very reminiscent of a certain Fox News personality, and projecting? If so, it was clear that he was spewing pure, Pravda-like propoganda, so THAT should make you think as well...
There were a number of uncomfortable rumblings in my midwestern theater when talk began turning towards 'the gays', though, and this is where I suspect that most comments about "politics" would come from. I can't imagine anyone could sit through Valerie's letter and not be uncomfortable if their politics trended towards demonizing gays.
Politics aside, is it a good movie?
Btw. If V isn't an attack on the present administration, then let THIS be...
THEY SUCK.
Fascists.
I want to know what the fuckwits were thinking they were going to see when they bought their tickets.
I want to know what the fuckwits were thinking they were going to see when they bought their tickets.
they showed up hoping to be offended. kind of an ignatius reilly thing.
V is a great movie. Different from the comic, as all adaptations must stray from the source material (except Sin City), but it definitely retains the spirit of Alan Moore's original story.
Everyone I saw the film with, and I've seen it twice, really enjoyed it, except for this one kid whom I've never enjoyed the company of, dating back to high school. He didn't like the politics of the movie either. When I attempted to explain that the original comic was written 20 years ago in response to Thatcher's administration in England, he put his fingers in his ears and loudly exclaimed "La la la la la la" during the ride home.
He is a moron.
I've taken to pointing out to people that the gang from Star Wars, Luke, Leia and the rest, by their actions, would be considered terrorists by any government in the galaxy. They go around destroying government property and murdering government employees. Sounds like a terrorist to me.
It's a fine line between freedom fighter and terrorist. It all depends on which side you're on.
they showed up hoping to be offended. kind of an ignatius reilly thing.
Or it could be like the idiots I've seen show up at Steve Earle's recent concerts, only to get pissed about the politics. They'd obviously not heard Steve's more recent work -- and hadn't been listening too closely to his older stuff.
Hey Rogers: just want to start of by saying that it was awesome to meet you and talk to you this past weekend at WWLA.
And now back to V: I don't get these people who walk out of movies based on the politics of the subject matter. As nolo so rightly said... what were they thinking when they went?
The film was ok in my opinion, but not great. It certainly had it's moments... moments where I was riveted and couldn't wait to see what happened next. But I'm sorry to say they were few and far between. I found most of the film to be a barrage of symbolism which is not bad in it's own right, but here the allegories were hammered into our brains repeatedly to the point where the director/filmmakers/writers/whatever sacrificed substance and story for umpteen references to current politics and messiah imagery. To me, all that repetition is just an attempt to dumb down the story for the general public (didja get it? no? how about the 3rd time? no?)
Problem is, the people who need it dumbed down are also the people who are leaving the theater 35 mins into the movie!
I don't have a problem with the movie's politics, just the way it was made (for the most part).
...and am I the only one who wants one of those masks?
Put me between 1031 and Hameed - I liked it a lot, but it fell short of greatness for me. I didn't think it dumbed things down all that much, nor did I find it needlessly repetitive. On the other hand, there were several things that if you thought about them too closely afterwards, it started to unravel a bit. Some of them were nit-picky (how did Evey know Detective Finch's name when he never introduced himself?) some of them not so nit-picky (how could the Stephen Fry character make as horrible a miscalculation as he made?). Some of the changes from the original really worked, others - not so much.
Oh, and I kept waiting for him to pull off the mask and reveal his snake tongue.
This movie didn't really work for me, and it had nothing to do with politics. There wasn't enough action in it to be enjoyable as an action film, and the philosophical/political aspects were about as subtle as a kick in the nuts. I also thought the fascist government depicted was too extreme to be realistic, especially John Hurt's seething, over-the-top hitler-esque performance. He would have been scarier to me had he seemed like a reasonable person, not a screaming lunatic.. Not every film has to be completely realistic, but this film was set in a time and place not far enough removed from the present day for me to suspend disbelief. Better than the last 2 Matrix movies, though.
"I've taken to pointing out to people that the gang from Star Wars, Luke, Leia and the rest, by their actions, would be considered terrorists by any government in the galaxy. They go around destroying government property and murdering government employees. Sounds like a terrorist to me.
It's a fine line between freedom fighter and terrorist."
It may help the discussion if we use definitions that aren't quite so broad:
Terrorist - one who deliberately targets civilians with the goal of inciting terror in the civilian population.
Freedom fighter - one who targets military (or at least government) assets with the goal of bringing about political change.
Under those definitions, given that the Death Star(s) would appear to qualify as military assets, Luke et al would qualify as freedom fighters. And, had the highjackers on 9/11 targeted only the Pentagon and White House, they too could've claimed to be freedom fighters. But they relegated themselves to terrorists when they targeted the World Trade Center.
To bring this back to V, although I haven't seen it yet--I make it a point to never see anything on opening weekend--I did see one of those interstitial promos on HBO or MTV or somewhere in which the Boston Tea Party was mentioned. While the tea wasn't, strictly speaking, a government asset, there was a government tax placed upon it. And the goal of the protest would seem to have been much more in line with bringing about political change, as opposed to inciting terror in the civilian population.
My 2¢ - Mark
While the tea wasn't, strictly speaking, a government asset...
It belonged to the British East India Company -- which wanted to sell the tea in direct competition with black market tea sold by John Hancock and others. The destruction of the tea (which was carried out relatively calmly) was aimed at snuffing out a commercial rival. The political significance only arose when the British imposed strict security measures in response to the attack.
...if you see a brutal, fascist society on the screen and you identify it as being an attack on your "politics" ... maybe it says quite a lot, and you should think about it.
Way to almost completely save me a post, jer.
I also thought the fascist government depicted was too extreme to be realistic, especially John Hurt's seething, over-the-top hitler-esque performance. He would have been scarier to me had he seemed like a reasonable person, not a screaming lunatic.
Coltrane, I find it strange how you compare Hurt's performance to that of an actual modern western dictator in the context of declaring that performance "too extreme to be realistic." The shocking thing about Nazi Germany is that the common man, by and large, thought the screaming lunatic was a reasonable person. In the decades that followed, many otherwise reasonable German people could only shake their heads and wonder aloud how they let it happen, not just to their nation, but within themselves.
The point I wish everyone (literally, everyone) could grasp is that, however over-the-top it seems, there is something ugly in the human character that renders us all to some extent susceptible to the charismatic lunatic promising to guard us from evil. However improbable it may seem, acknowledging the possibility is probably a person's best defense against it.
"But they relegated themselves to terrorists when they targeted the World Trade Center."
Only if you believe Real World power to be seated in the White House and The Pentagon.
Maestro: And, had the highjackers on 9/11 targeted only the Pentagon and White House, they too could've claimed to be freedom fighters. But they relegated themselves to terrorists when they targeted the World Trade Center.
Er, not to mention that they targeted them with civilian jet planes.
I took in the movie Saturday night with a mate whose read the comic (sorry, graphic novel) many times and he loved it from start to finish. I did too, despite maybe a couple of moments "er...?" on the story - I'm with Dweeze, did Stephen Fry think he was going to get a good official reaction to that broadcast? Duh.
We had a couple of walk outs too, just after the TV station sequence. Can't say whether it was due to politics or not - then again, I'll never forget some people walking out of "Air Force One" just after Jurgen Prochnow was killed towards the end. I'm pretty sure they thought that was political. Bloody wish the couple along the row from me had left though, the girl seemed to think her boyfriend might not understand the story without constant punctuations from her: "That's him!" or "Ooh, there she is!". For Christ's sake woman, belt up!
Overall, I loved it - the whole mask thing could so easily have been a repeat of the Green Goblin and Spider-Man on the rooftop fiasco, but you always felt Weaving was acting 100% behind there. Portman was great too (don't know what all the criticism of the accent's about, sounded fine to me besides the odd word) and anything with Stephen Fry in a dramatic role is to be cherished. There was also no "playing obscurity for depth" as documented in the Matrix discussion on John August's site right now. V used a lot of big words, yes, but at least they made sense, unlike that frigging Architect. And overall, it managed to look so much more than a $50 million budget, which gives me hope for the future.
And, like Hameed, I found my Halloween costume this year - damn they looked cool!
Went with eleven other people including my mom. We didn't have any walkouts in fact we had a good crowd. They even laughed at the Benny Hill moment.
After buying the GN after the movie and reading it in one day I have to say they adapted it well. Sure they took out some subplots here and there and John Hurt was definately the weakest part of the movie, too bad they couldn't have shown him at his trusty computer loosing it.
As for the politics of the movie: It's a movie. It's entertainment. Get over it.
Funny thing is, watching the utter train wreck that was Ultraviolet 2 weeks back and then seeing this breath of fresh air.
What fascinates me about the people leaving is that, when exposed to what they perceive as criticism of their political belifs, they leave.
When did politics become so dogmatic that simply hearing an opposing viewpoint is unacceptable? I can understand offense taken at hearing criticism of religious beliefs; those are based on faith, and argument about them rarely leads to anything but acrimony. Political beliefs, on the other hand, are supposed to be based on argument, rational discussion, and even debate.
Stop listening to the other side, and what you've got is faith-based politics. Which, come to think of it, explains a lot.
Rob, upon further reflection, what really bother's me about John Hurt's character, and the villains in general, is that they were completely one dimensional. Not only does this make them uninteresting as characters, but if you're going to make a political argument for something (rebellion in the face of facism) then show me all sides of the issue. It was never clearly shown why the people would fall for such a screaming lunatic like John Hurt's Chancellor (especially Brits after enduring the Germans). Another small thing too, whenever I see one of those big brother, giant head screens, I giggle because I always wonder if the guy in the picture has his own little screens on the other side so he can look down at his subjects.
Rob, upon further reflection, what really bother's me about John Hurt's character, and the villains in general, is that they were completely one dimensional. Not only does this make them uninteresting as characters, but if you're going to make a political argument for something (rebellion in the face of facism) then show me all sides of the issue. It was never clearly shown why the people would fall for such a screaming lunatic like John Hurt's Chancellor (especially Brits after enduring the Germans). Another small thing too, whenever I see one of those big brother, giant head screens, I giggle because I always wonder if the guy in the picture has his own little screens on the other side so he can look down at his subjects.
To those who've seen the film: are there any hints as to why Moore so vocally detests it? I've seen him quoted as referring to either the film, the script or both as "moronic" and/or "imbecilic," but I'm not sure specifically what change or set of changes set him off.
My take was that Fry probably figured the gov would recognize his satire as usefull. Which actually if they were the smart totalitarian facists they claimed to be they should have. Keeping the people laughing at the TV show is a great way to distract them from how powerless they really are. People figure if they can make fun of the leader on TV then free-speech must still be working, while not noticing that on anything of actual substance there is no longer free speech.
Gee, kind of sounds familiar doesn't it?
Doctor Slack,
I think Moore is just reacting out of his heightened sense of principle. He is more or less in holy war with DC Comics and has been so burned by movies int he past that he is knee jerk against them.
Fair enough, Coltrane. I haven't had the chance to actually see the movie yet, so for all I know I might have issues with Hurt's performance as well. Personally, going into it, I just love the idea of Hurt getting to be Big Brother this time.
I just found the juxtaposition of "Hitler-esque" and "unrealistic" to be a little jarring. Hitler, of course, was completely over-the-top in a way nobody would find believable if we didn't actually have film of it.
Now, it could be that omnipresent recordings have bred a new form of media-savvy fascist who knows better than to go off the rails in front of the cameras, so maybe we won't see such overt loopiness in the developed world again. In that they are harder to identify, cryptofascists do seem a lot scarier somehow, which may be more to your point. (I cannot believe I just found a legitimate excuse to use the word "cryptofascist.")
As far as Moore's objections to the movie, the closest I've seen to an explanation is a claim that he never intended it to be left-wing-hero versus right-wing-villain, but instead a more pure anarchist-versus-fascist situation, which doesn't necessarily map neatly into a left/right paradigm. The anarchist is every bit the radical ideologue the fascist is, making it a more balanced conflict in a way.
You need to write a comic called "Kung Fu Monkey!"
Sorry, I was forced to say that.
But if you collaborated with Ron Lim and brought back his version of Sun Woo Kung...that would be cool.
Danny...V was originally played by James Purefoy and I believe James McTiegue cited difficulties acting with the mask as the reason he left (was booted from?) the picture.
It almost would have been worth their yammering for another hour just to hear their reaction once "the gays" showed up. Hmmm...did they think C3PO was just British?
Keith...you're getting your Moore mixed up. Eddie Campbell illustrated From Hell. ;)
If you've grown up on 2000AD, a film like V doesn't have enough politics!
It was great, was surprised at the topics it dealt with, it could have been so bad.
My only quibbles are ubergeeky, like the residual idea that, in this era of The Office, Peep Show, Green Wing, Jam, and Nathan Barley, that future Britsh comedy would still be as obsessed with Benny Hill as Americians are.
Also the comic book collectors dream that 'if I could just kidnap a beautiful lady and show here all my books, films, and music she would fall in yuw with me even if she was, you know, trapped for a year, coz I be so very complex...
Keith said...
"Well then, V was a Freedom fighter..."
Well, then I would tend to agree with what Rogers originally posted: the politics of the film are basically "fascism is bad", and the people who walked out are fuckwits.
"The fine line bvetween terrorist and freedom fighter is really an academic one anyway. It's the difference between interrogation and torture."
While it seems logical that there would be some correlation, I'm not certain there's any causation. I can easily imagine a situation in which a freedom fighter might torture someone. And, while less likely, I can also imagine a situation in which a terrorist might simply interrogate someone (without torturing them).
Anonymous said...
"The destruction of the tea (which was carried out relatively calmly) was aimed at snuffing out a commercial rival."
So neither freedom fighter, nor terrorist, and thus not particularly relevant to the discussion. Works for me. (Although I wish I could remember where I saw it and who said it.)
Rob said...
"there is something ugly in the human character that renders us all to some extent susceptible to the charismatic lunatic promising to guard us from evil."
Perhaps we should add Benjamin Franklin to Rogers' list of required reading material:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty, nor safety."
MrVisible said...
"Political beliefs, on the other hand, are supposed to be based on argument, rational discussion, and even debate."
Now that you mention it, the trailers for the film imply that the government labels V a terrorist in an attempt to marginalize him. If that's actually the case in the film, it's alarming that some people are so willing to accept that label as the truth without any critical examination. (As noted above, V's actions indicate that he is more accurately labeled a freedom fighter.)
In other words, their thought process is...
I so strongly believe that the government is always right that I'm going to take this fascist government's word that V is a terrorist, despite evidence to the contrary and the fact that, as V's antag, the government's view is likely biased. And now, since the protag of the film is clearly a terrorist, I'm going to walk out.
Fuckwits - Mark
George Washington... called on the French for aid, and the fall of Yorktown in 1781 was their army's achievement. The French recoiled from the cruelty of what they termed "the bloody and ravenous Americans" towards their British prisoners.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,,1733316,00.html
Torturing PWs: the oldest American tradition.
Oh please, regardless of whether or not the movie is making fun of the present administration, this is NOTHING new. (So why is it that everytime a popular movie does this, people get surprised and we go through this whole 'how dare you make those kinds of assumptions' drama?)
I mean, I'm very surprised that the movie 'The day after tomorrow' didn't get more flack for what they did. The actor for the president looked exactly like Bush, the VP looked exactly like Chaney, both were shown to be incompetant and uncaring, and wow..go fig the 'president' character dies.
I heard about the whole Star Wars 'political' controversy. All I can say is, that if people are reading into the movie enough to 'see' that and get offended...then I have to wonder if it's not so much a case of being offended, but realizing that the movie might be jabbing at their choice of overall character.
Which, if the events of the last few months haven't been eye opening enough...
It's a fine line between freedom fighter and terrorist. It all depends on which side you're on.
I couldn't agree with this statement more...funny how also saying this has gotten a news show cancelled. -_-;;)
I think ultimately, what makes movies like this unnerving is that as much as we want to believe this could never truly happen, how there are always a few people in the theatre or in the general community who give us the reality check. 'Yes, it can, we are sheep.'
Still haven't seen this movie yet..but I *REALLY* want to. (even moreso now)
Rob: I just found the juxtaposition of "Hitler-esque" and "unrealistic" to be a little jarring. Hitler, of course, was completely over-the-top in a way nobody would find believable if we didn't actually have film of it.
I'm reminded of the fact that test audiences thought the original snippets of McCarthy in Good Night and Good Luck were an unrealistic over the top performance by a bad actor. Or something like that.
'V for Vendetta' writer Alan Moore has a lot to say about his career and the movie based on his graphic novel. Below is the URL to a great article/interview I read recently. The link will probably be fractured because of line-width restraints here on John's blog but I think you can figure it out.
KJC
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2153
Moore also thought DC double-crossed him by not giving him a veto over adaptations. He started his own comic company that later got bought by DC.
Also, he worships a snake now. That's not a joke.
Hell, I'm a Bush-hating liberal and I found the analogies to the Bush admin to be too heavy-handed and preachy for my tastes.
Saying that the movie can't be an attack on Bush because the book is 20 years old doesn't really hold water, because the movie doesn't really have a thing to do with the book. Sure, some of the scenes are the same, but the characters and themes have been almost completely rewritten.
I just didn't like it. It had none of the subtlety or complexity of the book, and it was so stuffed full of the typical Hollywood changes ("There HAS to be a love story!" "Oh no, Evey and Finch can't do any of those things, it makes them less sympathetic! Let's clean them up a little!") I would have been more than happy to accept a movie that was different from the book, but was of the same level of quality of craft. I really don't think this was it.
(Also, I found the CG raindrop to be absolutely cringe-inducing).
post-atomic power vacuum (that they weren't responsible for)
True enough. To quibble, though, nuclear war isn't what anyone is worried about (rightly or wrongly) in 2006 as opposed to the early-mid 80's. The movie is right to try and tap into what we're afraid of now instead of what we were afraid of then, so at least some changes had to be made.
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