Google's failed me. Name of the country (think it's a 'Stan) where last year widespread demonstrations against rigged elections included a sign-language news translator who subverted the reporting of the results during the news broadcast.
Money paragraph: During the tense days of Ukraine's presidential elections last year, Dmytruk staged a silent but bold protest, informing deaf Ukrainians that official results from the Nov. 21 runoff were fraudulent. Her act of courage further emboldened protests that grew until a new election was held and the opposition candidate, Viktor Yushchenko , was declared the winner.
BTW, it's -20C with the windchill here (which is STUPID cold) in lovely downtown Ottawa ... And the thought of that creepy little man Stephen "Dubya Mini-Me" Harper potentially forming the next government is keeping me awake at night. Talk to me, monkey, tell me it's going to be alright. I might even pretend to believe you ...
IF he manages to pull it off. it'll be a minority government, and the NDP will make him bleed out the ears until the day he's felled by the no-confidence vote. Then a (hopefully) house-cleaned Liberal party will take over again.
From your lips to the deity of your choice. Hey, I'm Canadian, I take PC to a whole new level ;-)
Seriously, I'm having a very hard time with this ... I'm a card carrying member of the Liberal Party (I even belonged to the Young Liberals before I could vote) and the thought of the Reform-Alliance-Conservatives (no matter how you dress them up, they're still wingnuts) sitting on the winner's side of the HoC makes MY ears bleed.
The first order of business for Creepy Steve would be to decide which to claw back first - the Gay Marriage amendment or Kyoto. This is, of course, entirely dependant on him winning a majority (the gods can't be that cruel) because if he seats a minority government he will get absolutely nothing done. You think Dubya's a lame duck ... wait for it. The Conservatives will have no one to play with - the Liberals will be gunning for them from the word "Go", the NDP are beneath their contempt and getting in bed with the Bloc will be political suicide.
So, essentially, a Conservative minority = another election in about a year's time. Hopefully, the Liberals will have gotten their shit together by then and all will be right again in Luana's openly accepting, gay marriage friendly, pro-choice, we like you just the way you are Canada.
Next time you're in Ottawa, drop me a line ... I'll take you to the Martini Ranch at Hy's and we'll have too many drinks interspersed with witty, intelligent discourse.
Or, Steve does the devil's bargain with Duceppe and lets Quebec fly free -- taking with it all those pot-smoking pro-child-care left-wing Frenchies. Alberta gets to keep its oil stash, and the natural majority in what's left of Canada is now right wing.
Now, while I realize that its easier for people to label 'other' people who vote differently (this goes for both the right and left), "wing nuts" (imagine air-quotes too) but really, that isn't very fair. Now, I'm a 19-year old Western Canadian, and I and my friends (and the rest of B.C.) have been affected by forest fires, softwood lumber disputes with the US, and the pine beetle infestation... among other things :).
(Reading it over, that last part doesn't really do much... oh well)
Now while I am a young voter, and this is going to be my first federal election to vote, I'll tell you guys why I'm thinking of voting conservative (and please don't call me a '-nut' with any sort of prefix, it really messes up my self-esteem for some reason).
Yeah Harper does look 'creepy', but why do we think of that in negative terms? Think of the possibilities...
'Cause the Liberals have made half hearted attempts at helping out B.C. and their problems. (we're the province that finds out who won two hours before WE vote)
I find it funny that they've had all of these years to increase government expenditures, yet they've decided to bribe us with our own money at the last second. While the Conservatives are making similiar promises, they haven't had the last 13 years to fulfill their duties to Canadians.
Morals. Hmm, this is an interesting one...
Have ya seen some of the Liberal ads? Brrrrr....
I dunno, time for change? As long as I could remember the Liberals have been in 24 Sussex Dr. and every 4 years as we (western canada) walked into the voting booths we knew that our votes didn't count for squat, because Quebec and Ontario had already voted. Tell me, does that seem fair?
I'm not trying to be troller or anything, but I figured that since all I've seen here on this comments section is against, I figured someone should say something.
John, Alex I read your blogs almost everyday, and respect you both. I even agree with you guys on Bush for the most part. However, I just wanted you guys to know that a Conservative isn't a 'wing-nut, or crazy, or some stupid guy who doesn't care about other people's opinions. I see a country run by people who cry foul, and then kick the opposition in the shins.
Here in the land of the pot-smoking pro-child-care left-wing Frenchies the bq is going to clean up because the federal libs have messed the bed (through the arrogance that comes with 14 years in power) and the provincial libs have spent 3(?) years revealing Charest's PC roots, pissing off nurses, teachers, health care workers, and the unions. It's been little short of a continuing farce. There are more than a few of us who come from an anglo, federalist background wondering if it would be so bad if things really changed. If the PQ were still the social dems of R. Levesque's day rather than the more centrist party of today there may well be more of us. Don't get me wrong, if the pq win the next provincial election and hold a referendum it's very unlikely that i would vote for it, especially if it's the same xenophobes at the top as the last time out. So in the meantime i'll continue to vote green and bang my head against the wall. Oh, and for those of you still not worried about this election - http://tinyurl.com/dhhp3 We are so screwed...
> "IF he manages to pull it off. it'll be a minority government, and the NDP will make him bleed out the ears until the day he's felled by the no-confidence vote. Then a (hopefully) house-cleaned Liberal party will take over again."
From your lips, etc...
What I worry about is a Conservative (sic) majority, which could be a possibility. I hope not, but...
If they do get a minority, I could even conceive of their playing nice with the Bloc to keep power. Frankly, the Cons and the Bloc are two sides of the identical coin, and that's probably one reason they loathe each other so much: because they're almost identical.
I say this as a native Albertan -- Calgarian -- having lived there for 44 years. My family helped found the Reform party, I voted for them for ages, blah blah blah.
To Jason I will say that their agenda is IDENTICAL to the Bush crowd, south of the border. Harper spoke to a right-wingnut American think tank and told them what they were doing was a "light to the world."
Anything they're saying to try to make people think they're moderate is wool they're trying to pull over people's eyes. Remember -- when Preston Manning finally began to become more moderate, willing to compromise and not yell "My way or the highway!" -- they dumped him.
If they get a majority -- watch out. It will take years to undo the damage they do.
So I'm hoping for at worst a Con minority, with their having to rely either on the Bloc or the NDP to prop them up. Which will provide a few months of screaming hilarity, without doing a lot of damage.
When I look at the issues, I see the Liberals are better in their goal of a handgun ban (not a solution, but a good start). The Conservatives would have sent our troops to the botched Iraq project and will be pleased to send another infantry to Iran once the US pulls the trigger there.
A quote from a real fiscal conservative, Joe Clark:
"In a sense, people are so enraged at the Liberal government, that they're giving Stephen Harper and his government a bye. They should take a look at what he proposes."
2. Canada will never be able to have soldiers on the ground in Iran. (The US doesn't even have the troop numbers for that.) But we may drop a few bombs in moral support.
3. I vote for turning ungrateful Alberta back into a territory.
Shan, I think you've caught something -- people are voting *against* the Liberals rather than *for* the Cons. But while casting ballots for the Cons, just for the sake of punishing the Liberals and thinking, "Anything is better than them," they don't realize what they'll actually be getting.
I do think, though, that the Liberals need a major housecleaning. The way Martin spent years manipulating and engineering his coronation, and "redistricting" (hello, Tom Delay!) so that former Chretien supporters would be pushed out, I think he's getting a proper comeuppance.
I have a feeling the Liberals wouldn't engage in the big housecleaning at all unless they suffered an election disaster. They kept the same cast of characters even after the last election, so I think it's time for them to be forced to get rid of most of those.
I view the Cons as sort of a "place-holder" that we put in, every now and then, to kill time while the Liberals do periodic cleanups. The main difference this time, I think, is that the Cons are vastly more dangerous.
And I even wonder, sometimes, if the neo-Cons down south would make enough inroads, during a Con majority government, that they wouldn't *let* us toss them out again. The first sign of Diebold (other other similar) voting machines up here, and we need to start screaming bloody murder.
And to think, I started all of this with a complaint about Creepy Steve affecting my sleep. I love blogs.
As much as I'd love to agree with you, John, no seperatism is not dead ... Adscam managed to revive it. Quebecers voted in a reactionary manner in the last federal election because they were offended by the thought of the Liberals attempting to buy their loyalty. Right or wrong, this voting trend can be definitively tied to the Liberals losing their majority. Did they deserve it? Maybe. Do they deserve to lose to a Harper majority now in the wake of all the other scandals and disclosures? Again ... maybe. But, and this is the oh-so-important caveat, Canadians need to vote intelligently, not because they're pissed off or offended or any of a number of other reactions. Use your heads, people, otherwise I have 3 words for you ... Premier Bob Rae (and all the readers from Ontario are now screaming in utter horror)
Having said all of that, I truly believe that should the Reform-Alliance-Tories (aka RAT - what an astonishingly appropriate acronym) manage to win a majority it will be just as Shan and Phyl have previously pointed out - not because people are voting "for" them but because people are voting "against" the Liberals. And then, my friends, we are seriously screwed ...
... Because I give the RATs 12-18 months before we're running at a deficit and the spin doctors start claiming that the Liberals "cooked" the books and there never really was a surplus in the first place. And he'll try to repeal the gay marraiage amendment. And Kyoto. And abortion ... You get the rather black picture, don't you? Questions? Comments?
BTW Keith, my door is always open and my couch is often free ...
Separatism isn't dead on a provincial level, on a federal level the Bloq is trying to become the alternative to the PQ when separation actual happens. Of course the whole separation issue is a house of cards that will only stand until somepne actually tries to define what an independant Quebec will be from a practical stand point. The minute that debate starts the PQ party divides into its constituent parts and all hell breaks loose. For fun just try to get a separatist politician to talk about the nuts and bolts of an independant Quebec. It is like trying to catch minnows with bubble blower. On the current election, the best to hope for is a minority gouvernment, probably conservative and a new election in the fall.
2. Basically, I see an election where there is no one that I want to vote for, except, if I dont vote then I cant complain about what happens over the next four years (maybe less) and Im not exercising my democratic right (it would kinda suck to not vote my first eligible time :p)
People can believe that voting for who ever THEY believe in will make the world 'perfect' but really, both choices have problems, and we will ignore what we want in order to feel better about our decision.
I'm going to be really radical here and say that I think, in some circumstances, the choice not to cast a ballat *is* your vote, and is just as valid a choice as having gone into the voting booth.
In 1993, as far as I was concerned, every candidate offered to me was a fool. (I lived in Preston Manning's riding, by the way.) I was so sick of all of them that I decided I was not going to cast a vote that could help send a fool to parliament. So staying home was my vote: "You're all utterly unworthy of any vote."
I think that's just as valid a political statement as a cast ballot, and I think if you've thought it through and decided that's the only choice open to you, you have just as much right to complain about (or commend) the results as anyone who voted.
The problem, of course, is telling the difference between you and someone who just didn't care. Heh.
So it's not a course I recommend as a regular thing. But I think in some circumstances, it's perfectly valid.
"the Reform-Alliance-Tories (aka RAT - what an astonishingly appropriate acronym)" Remember, when Reform were orriginally looking for a new name, they chose the Conservative Reform Alliance Party of Canada...
Question I haven't seen mentioned here or anywhere... with the Gomery report coming out in a couple of months, you would think that the opposition parties would have been smart to wait until then, no? A report damning the liberal upper levels, instead of local organizers, would hurt them more than the allegations we have now. So what does forcing the election now get the opposition?
Phyl, I agree with that, but in such a case, I think you are able to check off a 'no confidence' box on your ballot. Having never voted before, I could be wrong.
Current polls in the "Best PM Category" show over 10% say "None".
I kind of consider my Green vote to me a more constructive spoiled ballot in that my guy is never going to get elected but at least it gives him (or her) some measure of encouragement. I feel like we're the geeky ones who got left behind at the party sitting in a corner talking Canadian politics and any moment now our host Rogers is going to show up and kick our asses out into the cold night...
Scott, that irritated me too. Having an election now, when we were promised one anyway in a few more weeks. I felt the NDP really acted in hubris, and I'm very angry with them for it. (Even though I like Layton very much, I think he and his people presumed too much.) I wasn't even going to vote NDP, as a result, though I did last time. But the NDP guy in my riding (Bill Graham's riding) is extremely good, so I've finally relented.
And R.A.T. -- yes, that's perfect! I've been going by the old C.R.A.P. but I love "R.A.T." even more!
Great to see Canadian youth (or for Habs fans… Canadiens) so involved in the election. As an Anglophone Quebecer what choice do I have? So, I am voting for the day off.
To keep this discussion going, and for myself too hear some more sides (I'm beginning to think that I'm the only one who is taking a different side ;) ) here's a 'perfect' example of the problem I have with the Liberals: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060113/ELXNADS13/TPNational/Canada
I read this blog and its comments where you guys criticise Bush. I actually think that you guys are right about the whole truth 'problem', so why haven't you attacked this yet?
P.S. Nobody's perfect, but its not always as bad as we think! http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060116/elxn_platform_costs_060117/20060117?s_name=election2006&no_ads=
As for the first article, I hardly think Martin's Liberals have any intention to win this election "honourably". However, I think the underlying message those ads were created to relay (which they didn't do successfully) is that Harper Corp. is war-mongering. Unfortunately, the ads were just stupid and trying to put a negative spin on it--it backfired.
Honestly, Jason, if we're voting based on whom we trust most--our best chances are with Jack Layton, that's not saying much.
Can the Conservatives do a lot of damage in a minority government? I think so. When they open their big mouths and voice their unrelenting support of the War on Terror, we're going to be adding Canadians to the enemy list. (or Canadiens, I'm a Habsfan dj :)
Don't assume that those who aren't voting Conservative are going to vote for the Liberals.
It's possible to cast a vote for neither party. You can vote NDP and possibly increase their seat count. You can vote Green and give them more money for their party infrastructure (and maybe a seat or two).
It doesn't seem to me that you're the only person taking another side, as much as you're the only one planning to vote Conservative.
You've given reasons to not vote Liberal, but not any to vote Tory (other than to punish the Liberals). What is it that the Conservatives are planning to do that makes you want to vote for them?
BTW, to Anonymous regarding "ungrateful Alberta" - don't let your natural annoyance with King Ralph (try living with him) overshadow the fact that his overwhelming majority in the legislature is a result of about 1 in 5 Albertans voting for him (40-some percent of the popular vote of the 40-some percent who bothered to cast one). The seemingly monolithic political dynasties in Alberta are a good argument in favour of proportional representation.
The problem with not voting--and I have considered it seriously--is that "not voting" does not send the message I want to send. Not voting is not recorded as a signal that "I don't want any of these parties"--it's recorded as apathy. It's recorded as an invitation for more ads that promote the vote.
Some decades ago, when I was assisting in an Ontario election, it was explained to me that we had an option I had not heard of. A voter could refuse the vote. The scrutineers had to record the ballot as a refused vote, not a spoiled ballot.
That was worthwhile. It said, in effect, "I believe in voting enough to walk here and explain to them that I don't think any of them are worth voting for." A spoiled ballot does not say that.
I can understand why that option disappeared. I would have used it in several past elections.
So they really did remove that option? I thought they must have! My friends first told me about refusing the ballot when I got to Ontario 6 years ago, and I was thrilled, because it meant I didn't have to stay at home any more, to make a statement, if I loathed all the candidates.
Then someone told me recently that they'd checked the Elections Canada website and it said that officially refusing the ballot isn't an option.
So I wasn't imagining things, before. I'm relieved.
But I'm also absolutely furious that they've taken the option away.
38 comments:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801696.html
Money paragraph: During the tense days of Ukraine's presidential elections last year, Dmytruk staged a silent but bold protest, informing deaf Ukrainians that official results from the Nov. 21 runoff were fraudulent. Her act of courage further emboldened protests that grew until a new election was held and the opposition candidate, Viktor Yushchenko , was declared the winner.
How's that for fast?
Luana
lcampagna@adga.ca
DAMN, i love the hive mind.
Many thanks.
BTW, it's -20C with the windchill here (which is STUPID cold) in lovely downtown Ottawa ... And the thought of that creepy little man Stephen "Dubya Mini-Me" Harper potentially forming the next government is keeping me awake at night. Talk to me, monkey, tell me it's going to be alright. I might even pretend to believe you ...
Luana
Hey! I just found your blog and wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed "The Core".
IF he manages to pull it off. it'll be a minority government, and the NDP will make him bleed out the ears until the day he's felled by the no-confidence vote. Then a (hopefully) house-cleaned Liberal party will take over again.
moral qualms. I live off copyright.
From your lips to the deity of your choice. Hey, I'm Canadian, I take PC to a whole new level ;-)
Seriously, I'm having a very hard time with this ... I'm a card carrying member of the Liberal Party (I even belonged to the Young Liberals before I could vote) and the thought of the Reform-Alliance-Conservatives (no matter how you dress them up, they're still wingnuts) sitting on the winner's side of the HoC makes MY ears bleed.
The first order of business for Creepy Steve would be to decide which to claw back first - the Gay Marriage amendment or Kyoto. This is, of course, entirely dependant on him winning a majority (the gods can't be that cruel) because if he seats a minority government he will get absolutely nothing done. You think Dubya's a lame duck ... wait for it. The Conservatives will have no one to play with - the Liberals will be gunning for them from the word "Go", the NDP are beneath their contempt and getting in bed with the Bloc will be political suicide.
So, essentially, a Conservative minority = another election in about a year's time. Hopefully, the Liberals will have gotten their shit together by then and all will be right again in Luana's openly accepting, gay marriage friendly, pro-choice, we like you just the way you are Canada.
Next time you're in Ottawa, drop me a line ... I'll take you to the Martini Ranch at Hy's and we'll have too many drinks interspersed with witty, intelligent discourse.
Or, Steve does the devil's bargain with Duceppe and lets Quebec fly free -- taking with it all those pot-smoking pro-child-care left-wing Frenchies. Alberta gets to keep its oil stash, and the natural majority in what's left of Canada is now right wing.
Can't happen here? Please tell me so.
unless things have changed radically since I've been gone, separatism is essentially dead but as a rhetorical tool, no?
Awww crap... forgot something..
Now, while I realize that its easier for people to label 'other' people who vote differently (this goes for both the right and left), "wing nuts" (imagine air-quotes too) but really, that isn't very fair. Now, I'm a 19-year old Western Canadian, and I and my friends (and the rest of B.C.) have been affected by forest fires, softwood lumber disputes with the US, and the pine beetle infestation... among other things :).
(Reading it over, that last part doesn't really do much... oh well)
Now while I am a young voter, and this is going to be my first federal election to vote, I'll tell you guys why I'm thinking of voting conservative (and please don't call me a '-nut' with any sort of prefix, it really messes up my self-esteem for some reason).
Yeah Harper does look 'creepy', but why do we think of that in negative terms? Think of the possibilities...
'Cause the Liberals have made half hearted attempts at helping out B.C. and their problems. (we're the province that finds out who won two hours before WE vote)
I find it funny that they've had all of these years to increase government expenditures, yet they've decided to bribe us with our own money at the last second. While the Conservatives are making similiar promises, they haven't had the last 13 years to fulfill their duties to Canadians.
Morals. Hmm, this is an interesting one...
Have ya seen some of the Liberal ads? Brrrrr....
I dunno, time for change? As long as I could remember the Liberals have been in 24 Sussex Dr. and every 4 years as we (western canada) walked into the voting booths we knew that our votes didn't count for squat, because Quebec and Ontario had already voted. Tell me, does that seem fair?
I'm not trying to be troller or anything, but I figured that since all I've seen here on this comments section is against, I figured someone should say something.
John, Alex I read your blogs almost everyday, and respect you both. I even agree with you guys on Bush for the most part. However, I just wanted you guys to know that a Conservative isn't a 'wing-nut, or crazy, or some stupid guy who doesn't care about other people's opinions. I see a country run by people who cry foul, and then kick the opposition in the shins.
Thanks for the read! Go Canucks Go!
(Keep the political epithets to a minimum!)
Jason:
The reason to vote against the Tories is entirely because of their platform, which is - not to be blunt - a fucking disaster.
Tilting At Windmills has a much better and more eloquent summary of it than I could manage here.
http://www.la-mancha.net/?p=1181#more-1181
Here in the land of the pot-smoking pro-child-care left-wing Frenchies the bq is going to clean up because the federal libs have messed the bed (through the arrogance that comes with 14 years in power) and the provincial libs have spent 3(?) years revealing Charest's PC roots, pissing off nurses, teachers, health care workers, and the unions. It's been little short of a continuing farce. There are more than a few of us who come from an anglo, federalist background wondering if it would be so bad if things really changed. If the PQ were still the social dems of R. Levesque's day rather than the more centrist party of today there may well be more of us. Don't get me wrong, if the pq win the next provincial election and hold a referendum it's very unlikely that i would vote for it, especially if it's the same xenophobes at the top as the last time out.
So in the meantime i'll continue to vote green and bang my head against the wall.
Oh, and for those of you still not worried about this election - http://tinyurl.com/dhhp3
We are so screwed...
> "IF he manages to pull it off. it'll be a minority government, and the NDP will make him bleed out the ears until the day he's felled by the no-confidence vote. Then a (hopefully) house-cleaned Liberal party will take over again."
From your lips, etc...
What I worry about is a Conservative (sic) majority, which could be a possibility. I hope not, but...
If they do get a minority, I could even conceive of their playing nice with the Bloc to keep power. Frankly, the Cons and the Bloc are two sides of the identical coin, and that's probably one reason they loathe each other so much: because they're almost identical.
I say this as a native Albertan -- Calgarian -- having lived there for 44 years. My family helped found the Reform party, I voted for them for ages, blah blah blah.
To Jason I will say that their agenda is IDENTICAL to the Bush crowd, south of the border. Harper spoke to a right-wingnut American think tank and told them what they were doing was a "light to the world."
Anything they're saying to try to make people think they're moderate is wool they're trying to pull over people's eyes. Remember -- when Preston Manning finally began to become more moderate, willing to compromise and not yell "My way or the highway!" -- they dumped him.
If they get a majority -- watch out. It will take years to undo the damage they do.
So I'm hoping for at worst a Con minority, with their having to rely either on the Bloc or the NDP to prop them up. Which will provide a few months of screaming hilarity, without doing a lot of damage.
When I look at the issues, I see the Liberals are better in their goal of a handgun ban (not a solution, but a good start). The Conservatives would have sent our troops to the botched Iraq project and will be pleased to send another infantry to Iran once the US pulls the trigger there.
A quote from a real fiscal conservative, Joe Clark:
"In a sense, people are so enraged at the Liberal government, that they're giving Stephen Harper and his government a bye. They should take a look at what he proposes."
Oh, Jason, I'm 19 too, it's my first ballot, as well!
I hope the Liberals win, so they can spend the next few years doing things right in an attempt to clean up their ghastly image.
1. Vancouver Canucks rule!!!
2. Canada will never be able to have soldiers on the ground in Iran. (The US doesn't even have the troop numbers for that.) But we may drop a few bombs in moral support.
3. I vote for turning ungrateful Alberta back into a territory.
Shan, I think you've caught something -- people are voting *against* the Liberals rather than *for* the Cons. But while casting ballots for the Cons, just for the sake of punishing the Liberals and thinking, "Anything is better than them," they don't realize what they'll actually be getting.
I do think, though, that the Liberals need a major housecleaning. The way Martin spent years manipulating and engineering his coronation, and "redistricting" (hello, Tom Delay!) so that former Chretien supporters would be pushed out, I think he's getting a proper comeuppance.
I have a feeling the Liberals wouldn't engage in the big housecleaning at all unless they suffered an election disaster. They kept the same cast of characters even after the last election, so I think it's time for them to be forced to get rid of most of those.
I view the Cons as sort of a "place-holder" that we put in, every now and then, to kill time while the Liberals do periodic cleanups. The main difference this time, I think, is that the Cons are vastly more dangerous.
And I even wonder, sometimes, if the neo-Cons down south would make enough inroads, during a Con majority government, that they wouldn't *let* us toss them out again. The first sign of Diebold (other other similar) voting machines up here, and we need to start screaming bloody murder.
And to think, I started all of this with a complaint about Creepy Steve affecting my sleep. I love blogs.
As much as I'd love to agree with you, John, no seperatism is not dead ... Adscam managed to revive it. Quebecers voted in a reactionary manner in the last federal election because they were offended by the thought of the Liberals attempting to buy their loyalty. Right or wrong, this voting trend can be definitively tied to the Liberals losing their majority. Did they deserve it? Maybe. Do they deserve to lose to a Harper majority now in the wake of all the other scandals and disclosures? Again ... maybe. But, and this is the oh-so-important caveat, Canadians need to vote intelligently, not because they're pissed off or offended or any of a number of other reactions. Use your heads, people, otherwise I have 3 words for you ... Premier Bob Rae (and all the readers from Ontario are now screaming in utter horror)
Having said all of that, I truly believe that should the Reform-Alliance-Tories (aka RAT - what an astonishingly appropriate acronym) manage to win a majority it will be just as Shan and Phyl have previously pointed out - not because people are voting "for" them but because people are voting "against" the Liberals. And then, my friends, we are seriously screwed ...
... Because I give the RATs 12-18 months before we're running at a deficit and the spin doctors start claiming that the Liberals "cooked" the books and there never really was a surplus in the first place. And he'll try to repeal the gay marraiage amendment. And Kyoto. And abortion ... You get the rather black picture, don't you? Questions? Comments?
BTW Keith, my door is always open and my couch is often free ...
Luana
I had forgotten about Joe Clark officially coming out against the Cons. That's really all you need to know right there.
Separatism isn't dead on a provincial level, on a federal level the Bloq is trying to become the alternative to the PQ when separation actual happens. Of course the whole separation issue is a house of cards that will only stand until somepne actually tries to define what an independant Quebec will be from a practical stand point. The minute that debate starts the PQ party divides into its constituent parts and all hell breaks loose.
For fun just try to get a separatist politician to talk about the nuts and bolts of an independant Quebec. It is like trying to catch minnows with bubble blower.
On the current election, the best to hope for is a minority gouvernment, probably conservative and a new election in the fall.
Thanks shane and everybody who replied!
1. See the game last night? booyah!
2. Basically, I see an election where there is no one that I want to vote for, except, if I dont vote then I cant complain about what happens over the next four years (maybe less) and Im not exercising my democratic right (it would kinda suck to not vote my first eligible time :p)
People can believe that voting for who ever THEY believe in will make the world 'perfect' but really, both choices have problems, and we will ignore what we want in order to feel better about our decision.
I'm going to be really radical here and say that I think, in some circumstances, the choice not to cast a ballat *is* your vote, and is just as valid a choice as having gone into the voting booth.
In 1993, as far as I was concerned, every candidate offered to me was a fool. (I lived in Preston Manning's riding, by the way.) I was so sick of all of them that I decided I was not going to cast a vote that could help send a fool to parliament. So staying home was my vote: "You're all utterly unworthy of any vote."
I think that's just as valid a political statement as a cast ballot, and I think if you've thought it through and decided that's the only choice open to you, you have just as much right to complain about (or commend) the results as anyone who voted.
The problem, of course, is telling the difference between you and someone who just didn't care. Heh.
So it's not a course I recommend as a regular thing. But I think in some circumstances, it's perfectly valid.
"the Reform-Alliance-Tories (aka RAT - what an astonishingly appropriate acronym)" Remember, when Reform were orriginally looking for a new name, they chose the Conservative Reform Alliance Party of Canada...
Question I haven't seen mentioned here or anywhere... with the Gomery report coming out in a couple of months, you would think that the opposition parties would have been smart to wait until then, no? A report damning the liberal upper levels, instead of local organizers, would hurt them more than the allegations we have now. So what does forcing the election now get the opposition?
Phyl, I agree with that, but in such a case, I think you are able to check off a 'no confidence' box on your ballot. Having never voted before, I could be wrong.
Current polls in the "Best PM Category" show over 10% say "None".
I kind of consider my Green vote to me a more constructive spoiled ballot in that my guy is never going to get elected but at least it gives him (or her) some measure of encouragement.
I feel like we're the geeky ones who got left behind at the party sitting in a corner talking Canadian politics and any moment now our host Rogers is going to show up and kick our asses out into the cold night...
Scott, that irritated me too. Having an election now, when we were promised one anyway in a few more weeks. I felt the NDP really acted in hubris, and I'm very angry with them for it. (Even though I like Layton very much, I think he and his people presumed too much.) I wasn't even going to vote NDP, as a result, though I did last time. But the NDP guy in my riding (Bill Graham's riding) is extremely good, so I've finally relented.
And R.A.T. -- yes, that's perfect! I've been going by the old C.R.A.P. but I love "R.A.T." even more!
I think T.R.A.P. is fairly appropriate too. You can't go wrong. Unless you vote Conservative.
Great to see Canadian youth (or for Habs fans… Canadiens) so involved in the election. As an Anglophone Quebecer what choice do I have? So, I am voting for the day off.
To keep this discussion going, and for myself too hear some more sides (I'm beginning to think that I'm the only one who is taking a different side ;) ) here's a 'perfect' example of the problem I have with the Liberals:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060113/ELXNADS13/TPNational/Canada
I read this blog and its comments where you guys criticise Bush. I actually think that you guys are right about the whole truth 'problem', so why haven't you attacked this yet?
P.S. Nobody's perfect, but its not always as bad as we think!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060116/elxn_platform_costs_060117/20060117?s_name=election2006&no_ads=
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2006/01/17/harper-abortion060117.html
Sorry for the long URLs:
Globe and Mail:
http://tinyurl.com/cwjb9
The other two:
http://tinyurl.com/937g8
http://tinyurl.com/cjyfs
As for the first article, I hardly think Martin's Liberals have any intention to win this election "honourably". However, I think the underlying message those ads were created to relay (which they didn't do successfully) is that Harper Corp. is war-mongering. Unfortunately, the ads were just stupid and trying to put a negative spin on it--it backfired.
Honestly, Jason, if we're voting based on whom we trust most--our best chances are with Jack Layton, that's not saying much.
Can the Conservatives do a lot of damage in a minority government? I think so. When they open their big mouths and voice their unrelenting support of the War on Terror, we're going to be adding Canadians to the enemy list. (or Canadiens, I'm a Habsfan dj :)
Whogivesadamnistan?
Probably the Whogivesadamnistanis.
Jason:
Thanks for the good discussion.
Don't assume that those who aren't voting Conservative are going to vote for the Liberals.
It's possible to cast a vote for neither party. You can vote NDP and possibly increase their seat count. You can vote Green and give them more money for their party infrastructure (and maybe a seat or two).
It doesn't seem to me that you're the only person taking another side, as much as you're the only one planning to vote Conservative.
You've given reasons to not vote Liberal, but not any to vote Tory (other than to punish the Liberals). What is it that the Conservatives are planning to do that makes you want to vote for them?
BTW, to Anonymous regarding "ungrateful Alberta" - don't let your natural annoyance with King Ralph (try living with him) overshadow the fact that his overwhelming majority in the legislature is a result of about 1 in 5 Albertans voting for him (40-some percent of the popular vote of the 40-some percent who bothered to cast one). The seemingly monolithic political dynasties in Alberta are a good argument in favour of proportional representation.
..end ramble
Troy
Edmonton, AB
The problem with not voting--and I have considered it seriously--is that "not voting" does not send the message I want to send. Not voting is not recorded as a signal that "I don't want any of these parties"--it's recorded as apathy. It's recorded as an invitation for more ads that promote the vote.
Some decades ago, when I was assisting in an Ontario election, it was explained to me that we had an option I had not heard of. A voter could refuse the vote. The scrutineers had to record the ballot as a refused vote, not a spoiled ballot.
That was worthwhile. It said, in effect, "I believe in voting enough to walk here and explain to them that I don't think any of them are worth voting for." A spoiled ballot does not say that.
I can understand why that option disappeared. I would have used it in several past elections.
John
So they really did remove that option? I thought they must have! My friends first told me about refusing the ballot when I got to Ontario 6 years ago, and I was thrilled, because it meant I didn't have to stay at home any more, to make a statement, if I loathed all the candidates.
Then someone told me recently that they'd checked the Elections Canada website and it said that officially refusing the ballot isn't an option.
So I wasn't imagining things, before. I'm relieved.
But I'm also absolutely furious that they've taken the option away.
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