Friday, October 07, 2005

Lunch Discussions #145: The Crazification Factor

John: ... I mean, what will it take? That last speech literally made no sense. It was crazy drunken bar talk! Islamic radicals are like COMMUNISM?! (gets speech on laptop) If we don't fight terrorists in Iraq they'll build a fundamentalist terrorist state stretching from Spain to Indonesia? What the fuck? Even assuming Spain, which last time I checked is 95% Roman Catholic, goes down, you gotta assume France, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria, all eight hundred million Hindus in India, Burma, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore would be somewhat of an obstacle.

Tyrone: To be fair, you're going west-to-east. Maybe he meant a fundamentalist terrorist state stretching from Spain to Indonesia going east-to-west. Going that way, there's only the U.S. The President could be warning us that if we don't prevail in Iraq, the United States will become a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist state.

John: ... a little oblique, isn't it?

Tyrone: The man is nothing if not subtle.

John: (calling up map on laptop) You know, I guess if you start in Spain, swing hard south through northern Africa, you got Algeria, Libya there, Egypt, cross the Red Sea and you're in the Middle East ...

Tyrone: From there, if you spot him the Indian Ocean and India, you're in Indonesia.

John: I am not spotting him eight hundred million Hindus. I call shenanigans.

Tyrone: And again, I must point out Bush said "the militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, allowing them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region." That's what the militants believe. They may just be delusional. He says that himself: "Some might be tempted to dismiss these goals as fanatical or extreme. Well, they are fanatical and extreme -- and they should not be dismissed. Our enemy is utterly committed."

John: But he's citing that desire as a basis for our strategy. You can't cite your enemy's delusional hopes as a basis for a rational strategy. Goals don't exist in a vacuum, they're linked to capability. David Koresh was utterly committed to being Jesus Christ. See how far that got him.

Either Bush is making strategy based on a delusional goal of his opponent, which is idiotic; or he's saying he believes his opponent has the capability of achieving this delusional goal, which is idiotic. Neither bodes well for the republic.

Tyrone: Reading here, the speech boiled down to two points --

John: Who cares? The Spain-to-Indonesia thing should automatically invalidate the whole speech. I don't care how good your investment advisor is, he can spend three hours reviewing mutual funds, as soon as he says "And of course, we can put your money into the Easter Bunny's Egg Upgrades", he is out of --

Tyrone: -- two points. First, Iraq is the keystone in the struggle between the West and Islamic Fundamentalism.

John: Which, if we accept the Administration's own argument, means that invading and destabilizing Iraq with insufficent post-war planning (and all that entails), not enough personnel, and shitty equipment for that personnel was the biggest screw-up in the War on Terror.

Tyrone: He's the President: if he says it, it must be true. Second, Bush says we have made a lot of progress in stopping al-Queda plots. Look: "Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least ten serious al Qaeda terrorist plots since September the 11th, including three al Qaeda plots to attack inside the United States. We've stopped at least five more al-Qaeda efforts to case targets in the United States, or infiltrate operatives into our country."

John: What are they counting for those wins? Are they counting guys like Padilla?* This is all very gooey, like how we've killed like, nine of Osama Bin Laden's #3 guys.

Tyrone: Being #3 in Al-queda is like being a "creative vice president" at a Hollywood studio. There are dozens of them ... and they are expendable. Listen, don't do this, you're just getting worked up. Have another mozzarella stick.

John: Hey, Bush is now at 37% approval. I feel much less like Kevin McCarthy screaming in traffic. But I wonder what his base is --

Tyrone: 27%.

John: ... you said that immmediately, and with some authority.

Tyrone: Obama vs. Alan Keyes. Keyes was from out of state, so you can eliminate any established political base; both candidates were black, so you can factor out racism; and Keyes was plainly, obviously, completely crazy. Batshit crazy. Head-trauma crazy. But 27% of the population of Illinois voted for him. They put party identification, personal prejudice, whatever ahead of rational judgement. Hell, even like 5% of Democrats voted for him. That's crazy behaviour. I think you have to assume a 27% Crazification Factor in any population.

John: Objectively crazy or crazy vis-a-vis my own inertial reference frame for rational behaviour? I mean, are you creating the Theory of Special Crazification or General Crazification?

Tyrone: Hadn't thought about it. Let's split the difference. Half just have worldviews which lead them to disagree with what you consider rationality even though they arrive at their positions through rational means, and the other half are the core of the Crazification -- either genuinely crazy; or so woefully misinformed about how the world works, the bases for their decision making is so flawed they may as well be crazy.

John: You realize this leads to there being over 30 million crazy people in the US?

Tyrone: Does that seem wrong?

John: ... a bit low, actually.

Tyrone: (shrugs) Probably right, then. Speaking of Obama, I need to get t-shirts printed up to sell.

John: I can do that on the web. What do they say?

Tyrone: Don't You Dare Kill Obama

John: How about Don't You Dare Kill Obama (... and we know you're thinking about it)

Tyrone: Niiiiice.

John: Or You Kill Obama and WE WILL BURN SHIT DOWN

Tyrone: Even better. Nobody wants their shit burned down.

John: Glad to help.

Tyrone: I'm having you taken off the list for when the revolution comes.

John: ... there's really a list --

Tyrone: Oh yeah. Hell yeah.





* (Edit: Holy shit, he is. This was even more dubious than I was joking about.)

230 comments:

1 – 200 of 230   Newer›   Newest»
jay in oregon said...

I agree, at least in principle, with the "crazification factor".

I can think of one guy I know who is -- and I mean this -- literally every bad stereotype of the neocon wingnut you can think of. He drinks a big, heaping glass of the right-wing Kool-Aid three times a day and licks his lips while doing so.

You know that a large contigent of that 37% (or 27%, as your friend says) are the kind of people who would vote for a candidate who eats small children at press conferences before they vote for a Democrat.

Joshua said...

John, I know it's not meant to merely funny, but I had to stop reading twice I was laughing so hard -

"I'm not spotting him 8 million Hindu! I call Shenanigans"

Priceless -

But oh yeah, the President's a nutjob - am I mistaken, or did he declare war on Syria and Iran last night?

Joshua said...

By the way, I thought you'd like this -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/bush-eats-baby-republica_b_7137.html

It's called Bush eats Baby, Republicans defend President - it's very funny, be even more humorous if it weren't so spot on.

Chris said...

Very very funny. I think the National Enquirer is right: Bush is drinking again.

Chris said...

By the way, enter "dry drunk" in Google, and this is the top result:
http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html

Sam said...

I think you have to assume a 27% Crazification Factor in any population.

This fits in nicely with Will Self's "Quantity Theory of Insanity," which posits that there is a constant amount of insanity in the world at any given time, which just moves from population to population. So, if you dose the water in some genteel suburb with LSD, a comet-worshipping commune somewhere will spontaneously dissolve into a bunch of normal people. But Self never managed to get a definitive quantity. 27%! Perfect!

Juancho said...

I just want to know how I can get off that list.

Just askin'.

Richard said...

Well, look on the bright side. After that latest speech, you now have a functional [yet stylish] grading system to rank all future Presidential speeches.

At the top you have the Gettysburg Address; and at the bottom you have _insert random Bush speech_.

Murph said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Murph said...

Just to give the devil his due, Bush is right about the Spain to Indonesia thing. Islamic empires have, at one time or another, controlled Spain, all of North Africa, and all the lands between Turkey and Indonesia. (Including India, for several hundred years, as shown here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mughal_empire_large.png)

Bin Laden's stated goal is to unite all of these lands under a single ruler -- one who's name probably rhymes with "Flin Fladen". The fact that Spain and India aren't even Muslim anymore doesn't bother him, because when you are that much of a Froot Loop, you don't get hung up on details.

The point of the speech was to prove that a) Al Qaeda is so batshit crazy there is no point in negotiating with them, and b) militant Islamists are more objectionable than the Republican party. And both these things are (mostly) true.

But what makes ME mad is the fact that this guy has given another speech in which the phrase "terrorist killers" occurs 100 times and the phrases, "New Orleans", "deficit spending" and "I'm nominating the chick who does my taxes to the Supreme Court" occur not at all.

Anyway, sorry to post a term paper in your comments section.

Rogers said...

and to take the devil's due back -- nobody's asking for negotiations. Saying that this is Bin Laden's dream and so we can't deal with him because he's nuts is a biug "huh?". I don't want to deal with him. I want the war against him prosecuted with alacrity and efficiency. The real irony here is that Iraq, on the list of Islamic hotbeds, was way down on the list -- before the war. High on other lists, but low on that one. Saying that we have to stay focused on fighting terrorism in Iraq ia like a pyromaniac insisting we have to stick around to put out the fire he just set. Technically the correct thing to do, but it doesn't make setting the fire in the first place a good idea.

Jer said...

John: You realize this leads to there being over 30 million crazy people in the US?

Tyrone: Does that seem wrong?

John: ... a bit low, actually.


If it seems a bit low - remember that you're only counting the voting population of Illinois in your sample size. This is a self-selected sample, with no real indication of if voting adults are more or less susceptible to "crazification" than your average US adult citizen.

Assuming a similar distribution among the entire population, and using some back of the napkin math, you're actually looking at probably closer to 60 million adult crazies. Not even counting the "proto-crazies-in-training" under the age of 15 or so.

Rogers said...

I was going with the number of people as defined by General Crazification, as opposed to Special Crazification, which should spit out the 60 million number. But thanks for making us feel even oogier! AAAGGGG!

Michael said...

To be fair, you're going west-to-east. Maybe he meant a fundamentalist terrorist state stretching from Spain to Indonesia going east-to-west. Going that way, there's only the U.S. The President could be warning us that if we don't prevail in Iraq, the United States will become a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist state.
Another option is that is empire will head south a bit... From Spain, to Mexico, some minor Pacific nations, and then home free to Indonesia.

Are you will willing to spot 100 million Mexicans?

Rogers said...

Well, Hispanics are the fastest-growing group of new Muslims in America, soooooo ... no. Still call shenanigans.

Joshua said...

Rogers is right - I never understood how they tagged Saddam and al Queda in bed together - Saddam and Iraq were considered by the Shia nations heretical with regard to Islam - if you want to target fundalmental Islam, look no further than Saudi Arabia.

So are people so blind with religion in America that they will pretty much agree with anything Bush says?

I guess there is a college called Oral Roberts University, so maybe so.

Polymath said...

The line in that speech that really gets me is this one:

Wars are not won without sacrifice -- and this war will require more sacrifice, more time, and more resolve.

while i tend to agree that we have to put out his pyromaniacal fire now that it's started, i'd like to see him lead by example on that "more sacrifice" bit. maybe he could...i don't know...ask his daughters to enlist? stop cutting taxes for his 500 richest friends so we can pay to get the job done properly?

Should I Blog This? said...

John: You realize this leads to there being over 30 million crazy people in the US?That means there are more crazy people in the US then there are people in Canada!

Lisa said...

I happen to live in Illinois, and I can verify that 27% figure, partly because I make it a point to monitor all the local weblogs that have crossed my radar, and partly just from my hobby of observing Illinoisans in their natural habitat.

Sven said...

This reminds me of Daniel Davies' examination of local elections in the UK:

We know (or at least, credibly guesstimate) that of the voting population of the UK:
a) 2% are fascists
b) about 4% are Welsh or Scottish nationalists.
c) 10% are civic-minded souls who will vote purely on local issues
d) A thick 10% are single-issue nutters of one kind or another
e) about 1% are more or less fictional characters because they are the result of ballot fraud.

All of these groups will be voting in the local elections for sure; the fascists and nationalists have to turn out because it’s their only chance of getting anyone elected at all, and the other three groups have to vote by definition. Already, with these groups, all five of which are by any reasonable standard weirdos, we’re up to 27% of the electorate. A further 5% of the population belong to political parties, and about four-fifths of these can be expected to get out and vote. We have now reached 31% of the electorate and turnout was only 36% in the local elections.

writergurl said...

You've obviously been lurking (in the ether perhaps) within earshot of my 65 year old Fundimentalist Aunt. Who, in all earnestness, actually asked, "Do you think God is punishing us for the way this country is going?" when talking about Katrina. After I challenged her, (gently) I was told "That's what the Reverend said last Sunday. You know, they had all them gay people going to a party down there." Of course, she had no answer when I asked why God didn't take out San Fransisco.

The crazy just slides down hill. First from the right wing nutjobs "leading" this country down to my Aunt's pastor who then spreads the shit around like so much horse manure. She voted for ol' Shrub and STILL supports him. What's that bumpersticker? "Jesus, please save us from your followers."

Sven said...

Also keep in mind that the crazyness isn't spread evenly. It may be something in Utah's water.

Anonymous said...

Talking of God...

Now I choose not to believe in the traditional God proposed by many relgions but do praise his holy pastaness.

However all seriously from here in....

If God told Bush to invade Iraq, and Bush did what God told him to do. Taking a whole Nation (or 3) to invade a war based on faith or the word of God.

They why would that same God "punish" the USA? Didn't the USA do as it was told? Surely it would be everyone who didn't invade who gets hit by hurricanes.

So here's the deal. Either God isn't punishing the USA OR Bush didn't hear God in his ear. Because while God is supposed to move in mysterious ways - last I checked the record he is fairly consistant.

Of course all this arguement does is prove that religion has no place in politics. And that the law should only allow all faiths (which includes those of NO faith) equal rights.

What now for ANY front line troop if he declares that "God told me to stop fighting?" Can the CIC REALLY turn round and tell that grunt on the firing line to go against God's wishes?

And don't even go there on the holy war arguement. If the insurgent radical terrorists believe god is on their side and POTUS thinks he's on HIS side.... How can that be right?

My God's bigger than your God?

Anonymous said...

Distractions, people. Slight-of-hand, "folks." We are in Iraq for at least a year even if we wanted to pull out. Gas could hit four dollars a gallon, but he doesn't care because in his mind he has made his play to bypass the twenty-second amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Politics aside, why the hell would you make someone Chief Justice when they've never served a day? Or nominate them to the highest court in the land when they've never served a day as a judge?

jay in oregon said...

he has made his play to bypass the twenty-second amendment

OK. Call me stupid, but how would stacking the Supreme Court result in overturning(? nullifying? I don't even know what the correct term would be) the 22nd Amendment?

Rogers said...

I'm a little fuzzy on that one too. IN theory, I suppos,e it would fall to the Supreme Court to adjudicate if the 22nd Amendment coudl be ignored in time of crisis. I can't see how Bush could win another election, as he now has plenty of pissed off Republicans circling him (I am sure John McCain goes to sleep every night now quietly giggling). But, it's not my conspiracy theory.

Keith said...

Apparently, there is some wack ass movement to obolish the 22nd amendment, headed, by of all popele, a Democrat. From Raw Story:

"The Democrats’ number two in the House, Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-MD) has defended a push to end presidential term limits, and told RAW STORY that concern in the blogosphere that his proposal could mean “Bush for life” is baseless.

Hoyer has introduced an amendment to the Constitution which would repeal the 22nd Amendment, which states that the president is able to serve no more than two full terms. He has submitted a similar amendment every Congressional session since 1985."

In theory, it wouldn't take even a maendment, just some group to challenge the amendment in court, have enough judges pass the case up to the next rung so it goes to the SC, where Bush has conviently stored his henchmen. However, that would mean he would have to then run an election. And it would mean Clinton could run again, and he's siad he'd be intereste din doing so, if the 22nd amendment were repeeled.

Anonymous said...

"OK. Call me stupid, but how would stacking the Supreme Court result in overturning(?)"

He has the majority in the House and the Senate but...

"I can't see how Bush could win another election, as he now has plenty of pissed off Republicans circling him (I am sure John McCain goes to sleep every night now quietly giggling). But, it's not my conspiracy theory."

1) I don't see how he won the last two times, but hey...

2) Seriously, the cat already has Roe Vs. Wade and any other agenda his party wants sewn up. Why present the least credible cronies as your best choice-slash-option?

3) "(c)onspiracy" implies collusion and I don't even think Karl Rove is really in on this one. I think it's more the http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0110428/
"Madness of King George the Shrub" going on. The guy is delusional, his own party had to keep kicking him in the ass to get out of Crawford and visit the next state over and even then the best he could initially do was a fly-by.

His father still felt that he should have won his second term all the way into Clinton's second term because the President that wins a war is supposed to win the Election. The second Shrub goes after Iraq to restore his father's legacy when Syria and Iran are doing far more to destablilize the region and the world (and I bet you could find actual WMDs in Iran).

stephen g said...

"Of course, she had no answer when I asked why God didn't take out San Fransisco."

Or, indeed, why God would punish the Heathen Pro-Choice Movement by killing babies in New Orleans. Kind of self-defeating...

SG

Juancho said...

Y'know, NOLA is a very CATHOLIC city compared to SF. And it still got whacked. Hmmm...

Or maybe God wanted to punish all the jazz and r&b musicians. It is the "devil's music", after all.

Btw, this should explain how Bush's popularity defies explanation:

http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19635

Reverend said...

Press Releases
God told me to invade Iraq, Bush tells Palestinian ministers

Category: News
Date: 06.10.2005



Printable version

President George W. Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals.

In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Abu Mazen was at the same meeting and recounts how President Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

The series charts the attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999/2000 to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza last August.

Norma Percy, series producer of The 50 Years War (1998) returns, with producers Mark Anderson and Dan Edge, to tell the inside story of another seven years of crisis.

Presidents and Prime Ministers, their generals and ministers tell what happened behind closed doors as peace talks failed and the intifada exploded.

Israel and the Arabs: Elusive Peace - Mondays 10, 17 and 24 October, from 9.00

Nicholas Beaudrot said...

Wow. Great stuff. I would add more insightfull commentarly, but I really think a piece of work like that should stand on its own.

Anonymous said...

John: Or You Kill Obama and WE WILL BURN SHIT DOWN

This is a fatally flawed slogan. The people who might consider such an action are so disconnected that they normally consider themselves above such repercussions. Plus the slogan's sentiment inherently reinforces their worldview, vis-a-vis the LA riots, that any protests would be confined to the protesting community.

It's better to just stick with the open-ended and potentially ominous 'Don't you dare kill Obama'. Or perhaps refine the sentiment more specifically to attack the elitist disconnect, such as 'You kill Obama and we're coming across town.'

Agitated Monk said...

"The murderous ideology of the Islamic radicals is the great challenge of our new century. Yet, in many ways, this fight resembles the struggle against communism in the last century. Like the ideology of communism, Islamic radicalism is elitist, led by a self-appointed vanguard that presumes to speak for the Muslim masses. Bin Laden says his own role is to tell Muslims, quote, "what is good for them and what is not." And what this man who grew up in wealth and privilege considers good for poor Muslims is that they become killers and suicide bombers. He assures them that his -- that this is the road to paradise -- though he never offers to go along for the ride."

Ironic, huh?

Anonymous said...

Juancho said...
Y'know, NOLA is a very CATHOLIC city compared to SF. And it still got whacked. Hmmm...


Don't you know, by evangelical standards Catholics are not Christian and are basically in league with the devil. Why do you think it wasn't appropriate to talk about Robert's religious beliefs, but it is essential to discuss Meier's?

"As You Know" Bob said...

Some confirmatory data:

“27%” also happens to be the percentage of the American public that still supported Richard Nixon as he was admitting his crimes, resigning, and getting on the helicopter to go into disgraced exile.

So, yes, there is considerable evidence - even before Alan Keyes - that a sizeable proportion of the American public are batshit crazy.

David said...

Of course, with 300 French cities burning, perhaps he is not so bat shit crazy.

but your post is hilarious.

Neva said...

Um, 27% has to just be the Republican crazification factor. Logic would dictate there are some on our own side who are likewise incapable of logic. Sadly the total percentage of the population that is insane is probably higher.

Thaddeus said...

Countries fighting over a cartoon, however irreverent it may be, but a cartoon... That is crazy.

That New Orleans leadership can't pull together and provide a concept of a suggestion of a glimpse at addressing housing issues until, yeah, hurricaine season is approaching again. That is crazy.

That our president, his adminisistration, both parties - yes both parties.. have placed us in a quagmire that may make Vietnam appear like a C- term paper in the grading of Ultimate history.. That is crazy.

That your T-shirt is probably wrong and more like, Kill Obama and I'll flip you the bird for disrupting my American idol/survivor/dancing and skating with the trained bears coverage.
This is crazy and sad.

Move over Marvin, I am really depressed.

Where are the zombies who only eat crazy brains when you need them?

David Harmon said...

Well, the crazies are Shrub's natural constituency! I remember when Marion Barry won re-election as Mayor of DC after his drug conviction. at least one columnist pointed out that much of his support base consisted of young black males, many of whom themselves had drug convictions....

For that matter, the whole GOP has been depending heavily on projection and the other "infantile defenses".

As far as Shrub himself, "rapid cycling" bipolar disorder would explain an awful lot of his behavior! All those long vacations, drastic failures of judgement, grandiosity, apparent hallucinations, etc....

bernie said...

Those who do not think Islam is slowly taking over the world are not reading readily available reference texts.

100 years ago Africa was one-third Muslim, now it is two-thirds Muslim. So any notion that Islam will have a hard time taking over the world is rather short-sighted.

See my post How Many Muslim buggers are there, anyway

john_m_burt said...

"They're vicious, raving-mad bastards who exploit religious fanatics to further their lust for power. They will settle for nothing less than ruling the entire world."

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Sebastian said...

Holy shit, he did it again. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061025.html - search for "Spain to Indonesia". I am not spotting him eight hundred million Hindus again.

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