Friday, September 02, 2005

All-in-One Creationist Debunking

You know I'm a big fan of Orac and PZ Meyers, who patiently explain the hard-thinky bio-science. I just got an ... er, kind of e-mail, kind of screed about how evolution makes no sense. As we must keep our science kung fu strong here, we cannot dismiss such things out of hand (although I would dearly love to.) But where does one go for one place where all the answers to ID and anti-evolutionist questions?

An Index to Creationist Claims

Spend the day. It's actually quite fascinating. Oh, and you could do worse than hanging out at Pharyngula on a regular basis.

Interstingly, one of the recurring issues ID or Creationists have is with intermediate fosils. Where are the fossils showing the steps between species. Then, when you point them at the flightless dinosaurs with feathers, they ask for an even THINNER slice of the pie for the next step up.

I don't know if most biologists are familiar with this (probably, as it's covered in the first year physics classes most must take at University) but there seems to be a parallel in math/physics argument in this vein called Zeno's Paradox. Just struck me as odd to see the same issue pop up in a different field. Too deep for me on a Friday, but feel free to chat amongst yourselves.

On a serious note, I would like to remind everyone that there's nothing about evolution which precludes belief in God, just as there's nothing in atomic theory which does either. It is simply not the job of science to discusss His Pasta Holiness in any context.

On an even more serious note: if someone at a party asks "If we're evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?", you are now allowed to punch them in the throat. No, honest. It's a law.

29 comments:

Emily said...

I would like to remind everyone that there's nothing about evolution which precludes belief in God, just as there's nothing in atomic theory which does either. It is simply not the job of science to discusss His Pasta Holiness in any context.


Ramen, brother. Ramen. =)

No, seriously? I personally find it kinda cool that we all might be one Holy lab experiment. Most of my friends find it a little creepy. Either way, I agree with you 100% and will be using that particular line in the future, if you don't mind.

SPG said...

Fun blog! Thanks for the laughs.

moses said...

Ditto emily. And I've never been to comfortable with the fist pumping either/or crowd. Chill out dude, I'm pretty sure you don't hold all the answers to the universe. So I'm going with Intelligent Design via evolution, like maybe someday evolution may lead to Intelligent Design. Until then we have ample proof we're not there yet.

Rick Jones, really said...

I can punch them in the throat now? Legally?

Awesome!

Um, is this retroactive?

Rogers said...

arrrrggg, Intelligent Design as a "science"movement is not the same as believing in an intelligent designer. This is part of the very clever "teach the difference" bullshit. "Intelligent Design"is not just about the concept of an intelligence behind the universe -- which is where you go with your "intelligent design via evolution". It is an attack on the idea of evolution as the process by which life adapts and changes on this planet. By making you think that evolution somehow negates or casts doubt on God or some other entity, it frames things as an either/or choice. The fact that several prominent evolutionary scientists are vocal atheists hasn't helped with this framing. But again -- what you're saying your open to, is not what they're really pushing to be taught in classrooms.

Intelligent Design the "science", not the PR version, undermines and attacks the way we examine the available physical evidence. It is not even science by the basic definition of science. It has no hypothesis, it cannot be tested or found fallible or confirmed. That's it, guys, the beauty of the scientific method, all in one sentence. And ID fails it. Period. Do not pass go, do not get to be a science, never mind compared to other sciences. We have "ample proof" as you put it, whether evolution is correct. We will never have "ample proof" as to whether intelligent design is correct, as its basic tenet is about unexplainable irreducibility.

No, I don't have all the answers in the universe. But I know the difference between science and not-science with the same certainty that 2+2=4. They have disguised crock-pottery as the "being reasonable" alternative. Nice framing, but nothing more.

I applaud your open-mindedness about the idea of "designer", and respect your beliefs. But that is not the same as "Intelligent Design". Sowing such confusion is one of the reasons these folk created that highly effective obfuscating name. Talk about ID all you want, but it is not science; it does not belong in science class; and presenting something which is not science as science helps confuse a population whose understanding of small-s science is already unpleasantly low at best.

Anonymous said...

my newest tack on this creationist bullshit trying to masquerade as science is that it's totally useless to argue the facts. a better "strategery" (to use our favorite creationist's phrase) is to do what you're doing, which is to illuminate the tactics they use and show how manipulative they are. like when they make some absurd claim about their beliefs, and a local newspaper picks it up without understanding the science, and then a honest-to-goodness biologist gets too fed up to take it anymore and publishes a rant about how wrong they were and then they say "see! there's a controversy! teach the controversy!"

tactics like that. and others. you gotta point out how unfair they are because there's no way to argue with someone who truly believes that if any scientific data contradicts the bible, then we must have misinterpreted the data. the factual arguments are useless.

Anonymous said...

ummm, somehow your comment page isn't quite working and that last comment isn't showing my name...i'm polymath from polymathematics.typepad.com if it matters to anyone.

moses said...

Rogers -- Sometimes words don't convey the sentiment behind them especially when you're not very clear, ahem, me. So, not that it's the biggest deal in the world, but let me clarify my earlier comment. My "chill out dude" wasn't direct at you but the hypothetical fist pumping religious dude yelling "ID or bust" I imagined while writing that particular sentence.

And I'm totally with you on the ID. I was making a lame, muddy joke about the whole thing. And I get your point, my idea of an Intelligent Designer, Creator, God, Flying Spaghetti Monster, what have you, is not what the pseudo-science ID anti-evolutionist are about, not what they're selling, pretty wrapping and all. I'd no more want my beliefs in a classroom than theirs. Well, I'm a lot less caustic but still.

Reading your comment I gotta say you're a force to be reckoned with and that's praise.

Anonymous said...

Surely ID can be proven false.

Applying the Scientific principle it's difficult to "prove" a negative if the negative is all about a lack of evidence. It is of course nigh impossible to prove there isn't a god or gods or bowl of pasta.

But there is PLENTY of evidence to take on the ID folks and prove their own theory fails on one simple fact.

The only way the popular ID theory works is if WE have no intelligence.

I'm sure if there is any
"Intelligent Designer" out there he/she/it is right now concerned that they might have left too much evidence to prove themselves out of a job. While there might have been a design - producing idiots who don't want to think, sort of points to there being no designed "intelligence" involved at all.

davis said...

Wait... WHY are there still monkeys?

Anonymous said...

Because monkeys are intrinsically hilarious, and who else will throw shit at some creationist standing outside his/her cage saying, "I ain't no damn monkey."

No you're not, you're an ape, you moron. With monkey shit on you.

Polymath said...

there are still monkeys because of this:

the pre-monkeys living in one part of africa were just like the pre-monkeys living in other parts of africa. but some parts of africa were subjected to climate change, causing the creation (over many, many years) of plains that disfavored pre-monkey-like traits and favored pre-human-like traits. in the still-jungle parts of africa, the pre-monkeys became even more like monkeys as they became better adapted to their environment, while pre-humans evolved on the plains and eventually spread out to other parts of the globe.

if some real biologist wants to correct me on the details, please feel free. this is the sketch as i understand it. the point is not that all species get "better" over time, which would mean that monkeys should be so millions-of-years-ago. rather, species become better adapted to changing environments, and the changes depend on the environment.

that, i think, is why there are still monkeys.

ZenPupDog said...

My lame blog on evolution contains the WikiPedia article on Evolution.

Why monkeys still exist is that they are adapted to the environments they live in. Humans and apes share a common ancestor; And as evolution is not a static process - all animals and plants continue to evolve. So monkeys are as advanced as people.

I think all Creationists need to have their medical needs attended by witch doctors if they're serious about denying evolution as it informs the medicine we use today. - ZPD

Anonymous said...

The link to this on Noah's Ark is always a great way to get Creationists to zip their lips.

To be fair - it isn't an anti-diety stance but anti-stupid one - though GOD doesn't belong in any discussion on science.

Hadyn said...

Hi, mathematician here.

I like the use of Zeno's Paradox. Mathematics has all kinds of fun things to use against Creationists, but it also has some nasties that they like to use back. Albeit incorrectly.

Complexity theory is one, certain aspects of Group Theory. They may even try to go with Chaos (just coz it's trendy).

Zeno's Paradox is used quite well in this instance, but I urge caution. Zeno came up with his paradox in order to show the idea of infinite division was flawed. Infinite division was used to determine formula for the volume of objects like pyramids and cones. Today we use calculus and don’t think about it.

In terms of evolution Zeno would argue: before Australopithecus Afarensis can get to Homo Sapiens he first has to evolve half way there and then half way to that point ad infinitum. Creationists would then say “exactly”.

But the thing about Zeno’s Paradoxes is that they aren’t there to be solved or even to show anything (it is obvious that Achilles will pass the tortoise). They were there to challenge the idea of infinite division and create debate (I’m sure Zeno believed that he could reach out and touch a wall). As such I would be loathe to use the paradoxes for “real world” examples at all (as much as Creationism sits in the real world).

Instead show that their argument is flawed. For example:

Creationist: “The incompleteness of the fossil record shows gapping holes in the idea of evolution”
Me: “Please show me evidence that you grew up”
Creationist: “Sorry?”
Me: “Show me some evidence that you grew up to be X years old”
Creationist: “Ok, here is my birth certificate, and photos of me… and some other papers…”
Me: “I’m afraid that’s not enough, I can only see you at these age-instances. The incompleteness of the record of your life shows gapping holes in the idea of you growing up”

Follow up with a nice big throat punch as is required by law. (Hooray for that law change. Is it just in the US or was this a worldwide treaty thing?)

PamB said...

What about those of us too short to throw a decent throat punch? Kick them in the shins? Knee them in the balls?

Alby said...

The whole argument of intermediate fossils is total bunkum. Say you're looking for C, an intermediate fossil between A and B. Now you have to find two more intermediate fossils to go between A & C and between C & B. You could continue on forever!

As for why there are still monkeys? BECAUSE WE DIDN'T EVOLVE FROM MONKEYS! Both humans and monkeys evolved from the same shared ancestor!

Strange Forces said...

Amusingly enough, when I chuckled here at work about punching ID'ers in the throat, one of my co-workers asked what I was reading. I read him only the bit about legal throat-punching. "Well," he said. "There _is_ a gap in the fossil record."

Verily, I was able to lay the smack down, in the form of feathered, flightless dinosaurs.

Luke Barnett said...

not sure of the ID argument much or aware of its manipulations (not saying it doesn't happen, i'm sure you guys have plenty of examples :), ) but isn't one of the key points of evolutionist theory the point that there was NO being that decided to create this, and that it was all an accident( a general non-scientific term).

TimB said...

Not exactly, Luke. Evolutionary theory says that genetic mutations happen and that the most successful ones survive to pass those changes on. It's generally assumed and accepted that those mutations have been random because we have evidence of that process happening, but there's nothing specifically saying that God didn't cause certain mutations intentionally. The point is that we have no scientific evidence of God's intervention. You can believe in it or not but without objective evidence it doesn't belong in the science class.

SEO said...

液压升降机,苏州升降机,苏州升降机厂,苏州升降机有限公司,施工升降机,丝杆升降机,液压升降平台,电动升降平台,天津升降平台,液压升降平台车,升降平台车,沈阳升降平台,天津登车桥,液压登车桥,移动式登车桥,移动登车桥,移动式液压登车桥,固定式液压登车桥,超市货架,北京货架,南京货架,货架公司,货架厂,广州货架,塑料托盘价格,山东塑料托盘,求购塑料托盘,北京塑料托盘,苏州塑料托盘 ,宁波塑料托盘,折叠式仓储笼,天津仓储笼,苏州仓储笼,南京仓储笼。南京货架,南京货架厂,南京货架公司|上海货架,上海货架厂,上海货架公司|无锡货架,无锡货架厂,无锡货架公司|苏州货架,苏州货架厂,苏州货架公司|北京货架,北京货架厂,北京货架公司|货架公司,北京货架公司,宁波货架公司|广州货架,广州货架厂,广州货架公司|服装货架,服装货架设计,广州服装货架|超市货架,北京超市货架,上海超市货架|仓储货架,北京仓储货架,上海仓储货架|托盘货架,重型托盘货架,托盘货架公司|货架厂,广州货架厂,北京货架厂|仓库货架,北京仓库货架,上海仓库货架|深圳货架,深圳货架厂,深圳货架公司|重型货架,次重型货架,成都重型货架|精品货架,北京精品货架,广州精品货架|天津货架,天津货架厂,天津货架公司|角钢货架,角钢货架厂,万能角钢货架|沈阳货架,沈阳仓储货架,沈阳货架公司|青岛货架,青岛货架公司,青岛仓储货架|轻型货架,北京轻型货架,角钢轻型货架|山东货架,山东货架厂,山东货架公司|杭州货架,杭州货架厂,杭州货架公司|中型货架,上海中型货架,广州中型货架|济南货架,济南货架厂,济南货架公司|郑州货架,郑州货架厂,郑州货架公司|展示货架,上海展示货架,产品展示货架|库房货架,货架厂,北京库房货架|武汉货架,武汉货架厂,武汉货架公司|河南货架,河南货架厂,河南货架公司|货架设计,仓库货架设计,货架设计公司|不锈钢货架,深圳不锈钢货架,上海不锈钢货架|阁楼货架,阁楼式货架,阁楼货架公司|移动货架,电动移动货架,北京移动货架|物流货架,上海物流货架,仓储物流货架|佛山货架,佛山货架厂,佛山货架公司|定做货架,杭州定做货架,天津定做货架|江门货架,贯通式货架,防静电货架|宁波货架,宁波货架厂,宁波货架公司|石家庄货架,石家庄货架厂,石家庄货架公司|重庆货架,重庆货架厂,重庆货架公司|河北货架,河北货架厂,河北货架公司|哈尔滨货架,哈尔滨货架厂,哈尔滨货架公司|悬臂货架,悬臂式货架|图书货架,广东图书货架,深圳图书货架|浙江货架,浙江货架厂,浙江货架公司|货架制作,北京货架制作,上海货架制作|西安货架,西安货架厂,西安货架公司|木托盘,上海木托盘,天津木托盘|北京塑料托盘,苏州塑料托盘,宁波塑料托盘|上海塑料托盘,广东塑料托盘,青岛塑料托盘|武汉塑料托盘,山东塑料托盘,南京塑料托盘|钢制料箱,折叠式料箱,网格式料箱|上海仓储笼,南京仓储笼,天津仓储笼|仓储笼图片,折叠仓储笼,折叠式仓储笼|北京仓储笼,广州仓储笼,宁波仓储笼|货架|托盘|料箱|仓储笼|手推车|登高车|置物架|垃圾桶

SEO said...

北京托盘,南京托盘,上海托盘,苏州托盘,昆明托盘,重庆托盘,天津托盘,武汉托盘,湖南托盘,湖北托盘

SEO said...

北京托盘,南京托盘,上海托盘,苏州托盘,昆明托盘,重庆托盘,天津托盘,武汉托盘,湖南托盘,湖北托盘

Anonymous said...

warhammer gold warhammer money warhammer accounts tibia money tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts buy runescape accounts runescape money runescape gold runescape gp runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling cheap rs2 powerleveling runescape equipment buy rs equipment runescape runes cheap rs2 runes runescape logs cheap rs2 logs runescape items buy runescape items runescape quest point rs2 quest point cheap runescape questpoint runescape gold runescape items runescape power leveling runescape money runescape gold buy runescape gold buy runescape money runescape items runescape accounts runescape gp runescape accounts runescape money runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling tibia gold dofus kamas buy dofus kamas wow power leveling wow powerleveling runescape questpoint rs2 questpoint Warcraft PowerLeveling Warcraft Power Leveling World of Warcraft PowerLeveling World of Warcraft Power Leveling Hellgate money Hellgate gold buy runescape logs buy rs2 items cheap runescape items Hellgate London gold Guild Wars Gold buy Guild Wars Gold runescape items rs2 accounts cheap rs2 equipments lotro gold buy lotro gold buy runescape money buy runescape gold buy runescape runes lotro gold buy lotro gold runescape money runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling eve isk eve online isk buy runescape power leveling rs2 power leveling tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts Fiesta Silver Fiesta Gold Scions of Fate Gold Hellgate Palladium Hellgate London Palladium SOF Gold Age Of Conan Gold AOC Gold ArchLord gold tibia money tibia gold runescape accounts runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling buy ArchLord gold DDO Plat Dungeons and Dragons Online Plat

we-according-to-me said...

About 'The Second Law of Thermodynamics' resulting in Life.

http://we-according-to-me.blogspot.com/

M Nico K said...

This was a fantastic article. Really loved reading your we blog post. The information was very informative and

helpful...

Obat Kondiloma Akuminata Manjur
Pengobatan Kondiloma Akuminata Mujarab
Nama Obat Kondiloma Atau Kutil Kelamin
Cara Mengobati Kondiloma Akuminata Herbal
Pengobatan Ampuh Kondiloma Akuminata Tradisional
Bagaimana Mengobati Kondiloma
Obat Penyakit Kondiloma Akuminata Alami
Kondiloma Akuminata dan Pengobatannya
Pengobatan Alternatif Kondiloma Akuminata
Pengobatan Kondiloma Akuminata Pada Wanita
Penyebab Kondiloma dan Pengobatannya

Obat Kanker Payudara Paling Manjur
Mengobati Kanker Payudara Dengan Cepat dan Aman
Pengobatan Herbal Kanker Payudara Stadium 3
Mengobati Kanker Payudara Tanpa Operasi
Cara Mengobati Kanker Payudara Ampuh Stadium Akhir
Cara Mengobati Kanker Payudara Mujarab
Inilah Obat Kanker Payudara Yang Ampuh
Penyakit Kanker Payudara Tanpa Operasi
Obat Kanker Payudara Tanpa Operasi Stadium 2
Cara Tradisional Menyembuhkan Kanker Payudara
Cara Menyembuhkan Kanker Payudara Tanpa Operasi

Bagaimana Cara Mengobati Jengger Ayam
Obat Tradisional Penyakit Jengger Ayam
Cara Pengobatan Jengger Ayam Mujarab
Cara Menyembuhkan Jengger Ayam
Obat Herbal Penyakit Jengger Ayam
Obat Mujarab Untuk Jengger Ayam
Mengobati Jengger Ayam Pada Wanita
Mengobati Jengger Ayam Pada Pria
Pengobatan Tradisional Jengger Ayam
Apa Nama Obat Jengger Ayam
Obat Jengger Ayam Ampuh di Apotik

Riyan Cilacap said...

Thank You Verry Much, Ijin nitip gan dan trimaksih atas infonya

Obat Sakit Kelamin De Nature
Pengobatan Kutil Kelamin
Cara Mengobati Kutil Kelamin
Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Condyloma
Obat Jengger Ayam
Obat Sipilis
Obat Gonore
Obat Raja Singa
Obat Kencing Nanah
Obat Chlamydia
Obat Herpes
Obat Herpes Genital
Obat Herpes Kelamin
Obat Herpes Zoster
Obat Herpes Badan
Obat Jengger Ayam
Obat Kutil Kelamin
Obat Kondiloma
Obat Condyloma Accuminata
Obat Jengger Ayam Pria Dan Wanita
Obat Kutil Kelamin Pada Pria Dan Wanita

lionelmessi10 said...

obat penyakit kemaluan keluar nanahpenyakit kemaluan mengeluarkan nanahobat penyakit kencing nanah herbal obat penyakit penis keluar nanah obat kemaluan keluar nanah pada pria obat kemaluan keluar nanah pada pria obat kemaluan keluar cairan nanah obat gejala penyakit kencing nanah bahaya penyakit kemaluan keluar nanah kemaluan keluar nanah padahal baru waspadai keluarnya nanah dari kemaluanmu obat alat kelamin nyeri dan keluar nanah pencegahan dan pengobatan penyakit akibat sex bebas kemaluanku keluar nanah"

Vifa herbal said...

Penyakit Sipilis Pada Wanita
Penyakit Sipilis Adalah
Penyakit Sipilis Pada Pria
Penyakit Sipilis Pria
Penyakit Sipilis Bisa Sembuh
Penyakit Sipilis Lelaki
Penyakit Sipilis Lelaki
Penyakit Sipilis Wanita
Penyakit Sipilis Dan Pengobatannya
Penyakit Sipilis Atau Raja Singa
Penyakit Sipilis Bisa Sembuh Total
Penyakit Sipilis Pada Ibu Hamil
Penyakit Sipilis Dan Obatnya
Penyakit Sipilis Pada Kelamin
Penyakit Sipilis Menular
Penyakit Sipilis Rajasinga
Penyakit Sipilis Pada Kehamilan
Penyakit Sipilis Menular Melalui
Penyakit Sipilis Disebabkan
Penyakit Sipilis Apa
Penyakit Sipilis Apakah Menular