Friday, June 02, 2006

Electoral College 3

Hi there.
I know a lot of you read this on RSS, or blow through here looking for screenwriting tips. I even know a fair number of political conservatives read us, thanks to the old "I Miss Republicans" bit. I know you have other things to do.

Take five minutes. Screenwriter or satire junkie, progressive or conservative, read the Robert Kennedy Jr. article on the 2004 election. Don't pull up short at the headline. Just read it through. I don't care if you're spitting epiteths at the hated liberals the entire time. Just read it. Feel free to read the Salon counterargument here. I agree with Farhad Manjoo of Salon in one important respect -- RFK JR's bizarre reliance on the "science" of exit polling. Like Ken Blackwell issuing a long series of completely illegal rulings right before the election, tampering with voting machines and lying about terrorist plots in order to hide the vote count isn't enough. Giving such weight to the polling angle actually softens up the article, and indeed is the subject of most of Manjoo's counter-strike.

You will notice, however, Salon lightly skipping over big chunks of Blackwell's actions, whistling and waving over yonder. No mention of the paper-weight registration trick or the multiple judges who found that Blackwell was interfering, repeatedly, with the election. It is a sad day when Salon's rejoinder in defense of the republic is "Sure, Blackwell was plainly a partisan bastard who betrayed the public trust, broke the law, and stole votes. But did he actually steal enough votes to swing the election? If not, no foul."

I will merely point out a bit of synchronicity as this intersects our current discussion. Perhaps the title "Was the 2004 Election Stolen" can be argued either way -- but a better question is "Was the 2004 Election Fair?" I believe even the Salon article cedes a definite "no."

In order to steal a direct election, you have to steal a million votes.

In order to steal an Electoral College election, you only have to queer the count in ONE STATE.

Let's reason together, lefties and righties. Regardless of how you feel about Bush, in 2000 the man who got the most votes in America did not become President.

And you came damn, damn close in 2004 to giving the Presidency to another man who did not win the most votes -- and this was only avoided by the plainly illegal (go ahead and sue me, and enjoy the discovery process, Sparky) actions of Blackwell. I will argue that giving the Presidency to Kerry if he'd won Ohio -- while technically correct -- would have been equally as wrong as how Bush won the presidency in the first place.

This is ridiculous. It's the 21st Century. Please, go read Edwards' book. There are many, many fixes that need to be made in America's voting system, but I believe that eliminating the influence of the Electoral College will give us the buffer needed to work downward through the system from the top.

Every vote, progressive or conservative, must be counted. Every vote is equal. Every vote must be counted. If we can't even agree on that, then we're already a banana republic. And it's too damn late.

98 comments:

Anonymous said...

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

Joseph Stalin

Anonymous said...

another thing that needs to go in the US, in my rather unsolicited and non-citizen-but-concerned-observer opinion, is the 2-party system. the US and is far too diverse a nation nowadays to have their opinions distilled to match the opinions espoused by one of only 2 parties. plus your much-hated map would turn out in interesting, maybe even psychedelic shades if that happened.

PS: you seem to be getting a bunch of spam lately, you may have to make your captcha tougher... or switch to haloscan now that you've hit the big-time :)

Anonymous said...

I did a bunch of link chasing but to no avail. Is anyone aware of ongoing litigation against Ohio election officials? I just see a few that were dropped by the time Bush was sworn in. Seems like that would be a good way to legally substantiate these claims and discourage future misbehavior. Don't tell me that there are a shortage of angry Dem lawyers who want to make a name for themselves.

And John, I'm not sure I follow the argument about direct elections making fraud less of a problem, or the claim that you'd need to fudge a million votes. If I were listening to that devil on my shoulder and wanted to rig an election, I'd think it would be easier to fly under the fraud radar by fudging fewer votes in more subtle ways across more locations than having to, say, be pretty brazen about it in a closely-watched state.

Unknown said...

fudging fewer votes in more place sis actually tougher, as it requires coordination across a far larger system. LEt's put it this way -- the 2000 election swung on the number of voters you could cram on a jumbo jet. You would have had to shank literally 10,000 times that across the board to have tossed that election. 10,000 times the fraud, and chances to go wrong.

And I believe we've seen, twice now, you don't have to a.) fudge that many in a swing state and b.) you can get away with it pretty easily in single state where your party apparatus controls the entire chain of election control.

Steve Peterson said...

Getting rid of the electoral college would also make your vote more likely to have an impact on the overall election since you wouldn't have the cut-out of being in a state where it's pretty much already going one way or the other.

In additional to dumping the EC, I'd like to see instant run-offs (ala Australia), so I could at least vote for my first choice first and we'd get to see exactly how much support some of the other parties have.

Anonymous said...

Please Check out the map,
who gives a shit if freakin Wyoming voted for the redneck, Kerry got every major urban center and please check out the following site:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/

Anonymous said...

Frightening.

There is no other word, people.

I realize that my citizenship may render my opinion invalid in the eyes of some here, but I had to say it.

Anonymous said...

I think that Kennedy spends so much time dissecting the exit poll data for three reasons:

Breaking it down and quoting experts' opinions on it is to demonstrate that he's not a "Johnny Come Lately" on this; statistics and polling experts knew that there was something very wrong immediately after the election, but the media ignored the problem.

It emphasizes the hypocrisy and layd-down-for-Bush attitude of a press that dismissed the exit polls as evidence for possibly fraud even as it reports with a straight face the validity of elections in third world countries monitored by the Carter Center and other organizations, validity based upon the exact same polling methodology that they completely dismissed after their own country's election.

And lastly, it underscores the MSM's and White House's total contempt for scientific data of any kind, since it tends to reflect physical realities and thus contradicts every con they are trying to pull over on the world.

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

You know, after the 1876 election, when Hayes won the Electoral College but not the popular vote, the opposition party was so vicious they did things like call him "the acting President," and questioned both his competence and legitimacy so constantly and ferociously that he left after a single ignominious term. It'd be nice if we had an actual opposition party now. Why, in the aftermath of 2000, the Democrats were not constantly introducing amendments to reform the Electoral College, forcing the Republicans to defend the damned thing while simultaneously reminding everyone of Bush's illegitimacey, is a mystery to me.

Steve Peterson said...

Why, in the aftermath of 2000, the Democrats were not constantly introducing amendments to reform the Electoral College, forcing the Republicans to defend the damned thing while simultaneously reminding everyone of Bush's illegitimacey, is a mystery to me.

After 9/11 I figure there wasn't going to be any of that -- but before 9/11 it was likely because the democrats are scared of real electoral representation too.

Without the EC creating this false image, we'd see a bunch of electoral votes going toward Greens, Independents, and various other 3rd parties -- and we'd likely have a better idea of how inadequate the American public thinks the people the big two parties typically put up for election really are.

And that would begin the slide toward other political parties having more say in public policy.

Anonymous said...

a serious question; i've never understood this:

A) argument for the electoral college: it gives voters in smaller states more power. the 113 (or whatever) actual voters in wyoming get the representation of electors that number a greater percentage of the electoral college than 113/(total votes).

B) argument against the electoral college: it gives voters in larger states more power. 20,000 (or whatever) voters in ohio had the power to change the outcome of the 2004 election, while 20,000 voters in a smaller state like montana did not have that power.

what do y'all make of this?

Geoff Thorne said...

What is simpler than "one person, one vote?"

All this "power given to or taken from smaller states" is crap. We have the technology. The filter should go.

William O'Leary said...

Here is something I found interesting. As of the 2000 census California had an 18+ population of about 24,725,830 people with 54 Electroal votes. That's about 457,885 people per "vote". Alaska, however, with an 18+ population of 438,200 and 3 Electoral votes has about 146,066 people per "vote". That means one man's vote in Alaska is actually worth three times as much as his vote in California. Call it a "feeling", but that doesn't sound like equality to me. On the other hand, I'm rather liberal in my beliefs, so I'm obviously lying.

William O'Leary said...

Not to mention the fact that if the Electoral College were abolished, it would stop people from "calling" states after only 25-30 percent of the votes are actually counted, often compelling presidential nominees to "give up" early and thus cease the counting of the rest of the votes.

Steve Peterson said...

Even if you wanted to keep "small stte votes counting for a little more" you could do that with splitting the electors.

But, I figure then it might become more apparent that some people count for three votes and that might raise some ire.

walker said...

GW won, get over it.

No matter what you think of him now, TIN HAT AL would have been a mess and Swift Boater would be worse

Orlando C. Harn said...

No matter what you think of him now, TIN HAT AL would have been a mess and Swift Boater would be worse

Who are those people? Why do they have such funny names?

nouseforaname said...

I come here looking for Kung Fu Monkeys- I see nothing of the sort- just some mumbo jumbo about nothing. Bummer!

Anonymous said...

"GW won, get over it."

I'm sure we're all challenged and intrigued by your refreshing new point of view, but...

...did you actually read the blog? The topic here is the electoral college - and more specifically, why it's a bad thing. Whether or not Bush should have won is a tangent, at best.

Geoff Thorne said...

I'd hardly call the Supreme Court handing the loser the victory a "win." Where I come form we call that cheating.

I think the idea John is getting at is that the U.S. is just a TAD more complex than the lego block version of reality these parties force feed us.

Rather than fomenting actual democracy, something that can easily be practiced now without proxy voting, it seems that both parties prefer not to have our individual votes matter. Why would that be? hm. Let's think.

By dumping the EC we would streamline the process and let the people (as in We The...) have their voices actually heard. We're ALREADY counting the individual vote3s. Why add a step?

Not sure that can be considered a partisan issue, letting Americans actually vote for their leaders. Your mileage may vary of course.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I'm from Australia, and therefore don't have much of an idea about how the whole US electoral system works. I have a question: one thing I notice about election results from the US and UK and other such countries is the large non-participation rate - anything up to about 60% of the country may not participate in an election. Is the role of the electoral college to simulate how these non-participants might have swung?

Steve Peterson said...

No, the role of the EC is to further distance people's votes from any impact they might have -- thus worsening voter turnout.

Of course more Americans vote for American Idol -- your AI vote actually counts.

****
More seriously, I don't think the EC does anything for making the final results of votes from small turnouts more indicative of actual popular opinion.

It's real effect is to amplify the apparent effect of small leads in popularity across wide areas.

This is, perhaps, the only decent argument in favor of the EC:

No modern candidate is likely to win by a margin that will appear significant. Even a 52% to 45% lead (with the remainder being split amongst other weirdos) would look sort of weak in the popular vote. Thus, there are worries that this would undermine a new president's ability to get things done and shake things up.

Personally, I think there are ways better than the EC of achieving that goal.

nolo said...

meg, it's hard to explain the rationale behind the U.S. electoral college, but this link provides a decent thumbnail sketch.

Anonymous said...

No modern candidate is likely to win by a margin that will appear significant. Even a 52% to 45% lead (with the remainder being split amongst other weirdos) would look sort of weak in the popular vote. Thus, there are worries that this would undermine a new president's ability to get things done and shake things up.

Well, in 2004 the GOP called Bush's 1% margin a "mandate." And we still get mouthbreathers, even here, parroting "he won get over it" as a result, as though Bush barely squeaking by like a fat lady's fart in a vinyl chair means that anybody who voted Bush gets to tell his Kerry-voting neighbor what to watch on TV.

There's no final distribution of votes that can't be artificially manipulated after the fact or spun to be the Word of God or whatever. Or, rather, since 1% margins supposedly ARE the Word of God, I really wouldn't worry too much about 'em so long as they're wide enough to prevent a run-off.

La Russophobe said...

Your commentary on the Electoral College is quite frightening in its ignorance, while pretending others are ignorant.

You completely ignore the fact that over and over again Americans have failed to award a majority of the popular votes to ANY candidate. Without the Electoral College, there would be runoff elections over and over, creating even more controversy and instability than the one round of elections we have now.

Quite simply, no intelligent person can discuss abolishing the electoral college until the public proves itself capable of choosing a candidate. This requires not merely decisiveness but also participation, since a huge number of voters stay at home, calling into question the validity of any results. Such measures as instant runoff voting must precede any talk of electoral college reform, but they don't in your stilted, ignorant, superficial analysis. In other words, you're as much part of the problem as the solution.

What's more, you ignore the fact that we have the world's most stable and vital democracy with 200 years of electoral college operation. You ignore that, in all liklihood, JFK would never have become president without the Electoral College, and certainly Bill Clinton wouldn't have (in 1992 he got only FORTY THREE PERCENT of the popular vote yet became president with a landslide in the electoral college; with a runoff election, Bush Sr. is easily reelected).

Face it, dude, you're in way over your head and embarassing yourself.

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Penyakit kencing nanah bisa disebabkan oleh beberapa faktor seperti seks bebas, penularan, virus hpv, lingkungan, gaya hidup dan lainnya, Maka dari itu kita harus waspada dengan penyakit kencing nanah ini, karena penyakit kencing nanah sangatlah berbahaya, Namun untuk anda yang menderita penyakit kencing nanah, maka anda tidak perlu khawatir,

Unknown said...

Penyakit kencing nanah bisa disebabkan oleh beberapa faktor seperti seks bebas, penularan, virus hpv, lingkungan, gaya hidup dan lainnya, Maka dari itu kita harus waspada dengan penyakit kencing nanah ini, karena penyakit kencing nanah sangatlah berbahaya, Namun untuk anda yang menderita penyakit kencing nanah, maka anda tidak perlu khawatir,

Unknown said...

Bagi anda yang sedang mencari obat herbal buat kencing nanah atau gonore, kami sarankan untuk memilih obat herba dari De Nature dengan nama Gang jie dan Gho Siah sebagai pengobatan alternatif tradisional alami untuk kencing nanah atau gonore.

Unknown said...

Berapa Harga untuk Obat Wasir Ambeien alami daun ungu AmbeclearAmbeien adalah gangguan atau penyakit yang terjadi pada saluran pencernaan manusia

Unknown said...

Pada pria, gejala awal gonore biasanya
timbul dalam waktu 2-7 hari setelah terinfeksi. Gejalanya berawal sebagai rasa tidak enak pada uretra dan beberapa jam kemudian diikuti
oleh nyeri ketika berkemih serta keluarnya nanah dari penis.


Unknown said...

Bukan hanya pengobatan medis saja tapi ada juga pengobatan rumah alami yang dapat digunakan untuk menyingkirkan penyakit kutil kelamin ini. Intinya, karena kutil ini muncul di daerah yang sensitif, maka anda harus mencari pengobatan yang terbaik pada kulit Anda dan jika diperlukan juga dibantu dengan tenaga medis yang professional. Sebab dokter akan menjadi sumber informasi yang baik untuk mengobati penyakit ini.

Unknown said...

Cara yang sering di lakukan untuk menghilangkan kutil kelamin adalah dengan cara pembedahah atau operasi, cara ini tentu memerlukan dana yang tidak sedikit. metode Pilihan pembedahan yang dapat Anda lakukan

Unknown said...

Cara yang sering di lakukan untuk menghilangkan kutil kelamin adalah dengan cara pembedahah atau operasi, cara ini tentu memerlukan dana yang tidak sedikit. metode Pilihan pembedahan yang dapat Anda lakukan

Unknown said...

Kenali penyebab penyakit kencing bernanah sehingga cara mengobati
penyakit kencing nanah dan infeksi saluran kencing nanah dapat dilakukan
dengan benar.

Unknown said...

Kenali penyebab penyakit kencing bernanah sehingga cara mengobati
penyakit kencing nanah dan infeksi saluran kencing nanah dapat dilakukan
dengan benar.

Pengobatan Ambeien Wasir said...

wkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwkwk

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillaahirrohmaanirrokhiim ???????????????????????????????????

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillaahirrohmaanirrokhiim ???????????????????????????????????

Unknown said...

Kadang disertai
dengan sakit saat kencing, perih, organ intim terasa panas menyiksa,
gatal,..

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... *********************************

Unknown said...

Sekitar Vagina Tumbuh Daging, Berbahayakah? Kutil Pada Kepala Penis mirip bunga kol atau jengger ayam, Merupakan Penyakit Yang diakibatkan Oleh Virus.Kutil kelamin, atau disebut juga condyloma acuminata, adalah kutil atau daging berwarna kulit atau keabuan yang tumbuh di sekitar alat kelamin dan

Unknown said...

Sekitar Vagina Tumbuh Daging, Berbahayakah? Kutil Pada Kepala Penis mirip bunga kol atau jengger ayam, Merupakan Penyakit Yang diakibatkan Oleh Virus.Kutil kelamin, atau disebut juga condyloma acuminata, adalah kutil atau daging berwarna kulit atau keabuan yang tumbuh di sekitar alat kelamin dan

obar herbal manjur alami said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ........................

Unknown said...

penyakit yang ditularkan melalui hubungan seks : vaginal, oral dan anal. Juga dapat menular melalui persentuhan kulit dengan daerah yang terinfeksi.

Unknown said...

Obat Ambeien Resep Dokter Ambeclear dari De Nature Ampuh Tuntaskan Ambeien Sampai Tuntas

Unknown said...

Obat Ambeien Resep Dokter Ambeclear dari De Nature Ampuh Tuntaskan Ambeien Sampai Tuntas

obar herbal manjur alami said...

MANTAB *************************************

Cara Mengobati Wasir Ambeien said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ........................

Unknown said...

Ambeien bisa mengeluarkan darah(seperti invander salim yang terkena ambeien dan mengeluarkan darah)

Unknown said...

Ambeien bisa mengeluarkan darah(seperti invander salim yang terkena ambeien dan mengeluarkan darah)

Unknown said...

Sebelum kita membahas tentang pengobatan ambeien, dalam kesempatan ini
saya ingin menjelaskan sekilas tentang ambeien, agar kita semua bisa
memahami benar apa itu penyakit ambeien

Unknown said...

Sebelum kita membahas tentang pengobatan ambeien, dalam kesempatan ini
saya ingin menjelaskan sekilas tentang ambeien, agar kita semua bisa
memahami benar apa itu penyakit ambeien

Unknown said...

obat wasir, Adalah  Obat alami berkhasiat dalam bentuk kapsul yang berasal dari tanaman herbal seperti daun ungu, mahkota dewa dan kunyit putih, diberikan pada penderita jika penyakit masih dalam tingkatan stadium ringan

Unknown said...

obat wasir, Adalah  Obat alami berkhasiat dalam bentuk kapsul yang berasal dari tanaman herbal seperti daun ungu, mahkota dewa dan kunyit putih, diberikan pada penderita jika penyakit masih dalam tingkatan stadium ringan

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... ***************************

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahhirrohmaanirrokhim.... ***************************

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim .........................

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

Bismillahirrohmannirrokhim ......................................

Reseller De Nature said...

Obat kencing nanah doxycycline
Obat kencing nanah di samarinda
Nama obat kencing nanah di apotik
Nama obat kencing nanah di apotek
Obat kencing nanah kimia farma
Obat farmasi kencing nanah
Obat kencing nanah gonore
Obat kencing nanah generik
Obat kencing nanah go
Obat gonorrhea kencing nanah
Obat gejala kencing nanah
Nama obat kencing nanah yang di jual di apotik
Tempat jual obat kencing nanah
Apotik jual obat kencing nanah
Apotik yg jual obat kencing nanah
Jual obat kencing nanah di jakarta
Jual obat kencing nanah di surabaya
Jual obat kencing nanah bandung
Obat kencing nanah kaskus
Obat kencing keluar nanah
Obat kencing keluar nanah di apotik
Obat kutil kelamin tradisional
Obat kutil kelamin
Obat kutil kelamin wanita
Obat kutil kelamin di apotik
Obat kutil kelamin denature
Obat kutil kelamin resep dokter
Obat kutil kelamin malaysia
Obat kutil kelamin apotik
Obat kutil kelamin di anus

obar herbal manjur alami said...

???????????????????????????????????????

Unknown said...

???????????????????????????????

Unknown said...

MANTAB???????????????????????????????

obar herbal manjur alami said...

1111111111111111111111111

obar herbal manjur alami said...

111111111111111111111111111111

obar herbal manjur alami said...

111111111111111111111111111111

Obat Keputihan Herbal Alami said...

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

1111111111111111111111111111111

Unknown said...

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Unknown said...

manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur manjur

Anonymous said...

Wasir atau dikenal juga dengan ambeien merupakan salah satu jenis penyakit

Anonymous said...

Wasir atau dikenal juga dengan ambeien merupakan salah satu jenis penyakit

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

Anonymous said...

yang sangat mengganggu. Ambeien atau wasir ini muncul..

kLINIK oBAT mANJUR said...

obat ambeien wasir paling manjur mengobati penyakit wasir ambeien tanpa efek samping terbuat dari bahan alami herbal seperti daun ungu mahkota dewa kunyit putih

Unknown said...

obat sipilis raja singa obat sipilis raja singa manjur obat sipilis raja singa herbal obat sipilis raja singa alami obat sipilis raja singa mujarab obat sipilis raja singa herbal manjur

Unknown said...

obat sipilis raja singa obat sipilis raja singa manjur obat sipilis raja singa herbal obat sipilis raja singa alami obat sipilis raja singa mujarab obat sipilis raja singa herbal manjur