Wednesday, August 30, 2006

Dissent

via Crooks & Liars -- I can only dip my head in respect. From tonight, about the vicious slur Rumsfeld committed against his fellow Americans yesterday. Go to the link for the video, it's worth it. But here's the transcript:

"The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald S. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld’s remarkable comments to the Veterans of Foreign Wars yesterday demand the deep analysis - and the sober contemplation - of every
American.

For they do not merely serve to impugn the morality or
intelligence - indeed, the loyalty — of the majority of Americans who
oppose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land;

Worse, still, they credit those same transient occupants - our
employees — with a total omniscience; a total omniscience which neither
common sense, nor this administration’s track record at home or abroad,
suggests they deserve.

Dissent and disagreement with government is the life’s blood of
human freedom; And not merely because it is the first roadblock against the
kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as "his" troops still
fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile… it
is right — and the power to which it speaks, is wrong.

In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld’s speechwriter was
adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis.

For, in their time, there was another government faced with true
peril - with a growing evil - powerful and remorseless.

That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld’s, had a monopoly on all the
facts. It, too, had the secret information. It alone had the true
picture of the threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in
terms like Mr. Rumsfeld’s - questioning their intellect and their
morality.

That government was England’s, in the 1930’s.

It "knew" Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone
England.

It "knew" Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all
treaties and accords.

It "knew" that the hard evidence it received, which
contradicted policies, conclusions - and omniscience — needed to be
dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain already "knew"
the truth.

Most relevant of all - it "knew" that its staunchest critics
needed to be marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost
of them as a blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile - at
best… morally or intellectually confused.

That critic’s name… was Winston Churchill.

Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this
evening. We have only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way
Neville Chamberlain demonized Winston Churchill.

History - and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England
- taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty - and his own
confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make the
man, but that the office can also make the facts.

Thus did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.
Excepting the fact that he has the battery plugged in backwards.

His government, absolute - and exclusive - in its knowledge, is not the
modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis. It is the modern
version of the government… of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today’s Omniscients.

That about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused… is simply this:

This is a Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely. And as such,
all voices count — not just his. Had he or his President perhaps
proven any of their prior claims of omniscience - about Osama Bin
Laden’s plans five years ago - about Saddam Hussein’s weapons four years ago
- about Hurricane Katrina’s impact one* year ago - we all might be able to
swallow hard, and accept their omniscience as a bearable, even useful
recipe, of fact, plus ego.

But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own
arrogance, and its own hubris.

Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or
intellectually, about his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to
Katrina, to the entire "Fog of Fear" which continues to enveloppe this
nation - he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, and their cronies, have - inadvertently
or intentionally - profited and benefited, both personally, and politically.
And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and
the intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the
Emporer’s New Clothes.

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised?

As a child, of whose heroism did he read?

On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day
to fight?

With what country has he confused… the United States of
America?

—–

The confusion we — as its citizens - must now address, is
stark and forbidding. But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when
men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and
obscured our flag. Note - with hope in your heart - that those earlier
Americans always found their way to the light… and we can, too.

The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and
this Administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the
terrorists seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for
which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City,
so valiantly fought.

—-

And about Mr. Rumsfeld’s other main assertion, that this country
faces a "new type of fascism."

As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew
everything could get everything wrong, so too was he right when he
said that — though probably not in the way he thought he meant it.

This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed.

—-

Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble
tribute… I have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist
Edward R. Murrow.

But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I
come close to matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of
us, at a time when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew
everything, and branded those who disagreed, "confused" or "immoral."

Thus forgive me for reading Murrow in full:

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty," he said, in 1954.

"We must remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction
depends upon evidence and due process of law.

"We will not walk in fear - one, of another. We will not be
driven by fear into an age of un-reason, if we dig deep in our history
and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men;

"Not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to
defend causes that were - for the moment - unpopular."

If I may, inadequately, add:

Dissent. Dissent dissent dissent. Dissent is why people died for you. Dissent is your birthright. Dissent when a Republican is President. Dissent when a Democrat is President. Dissent when your party is out of power, dissent when they are in. Your alliance is to the Constitution, not a party. You are a citizen of a nation of laws, not loyalties.

There is no wrong time for dissent -- good policy or truth is never harmed by having a greater light turned upon it. A war plan that can't survive pointed questions can hardly stand up against cunning enemies.

Remember why treason is the only crime specifically described in the Constitution -- because the Founding Fathers knew that charge would be the first out of the bag when the Powerful became uneasy, and they wanted to make sure it couldn't be abused. The Founding Fathers knew the first ones to call treason are the bastards.

Never, ever forget that.

Dissent dissent dissent. Question, probe, doubt doubt DOUBT until even the leaders you agree with beg forbearance with ragged voices. The ease with which the best men will become if not corrupt with power, far too comfortable with it, is frightening. Our will to dissent, to question, saves both them and us, their souls and our freedom.

You know the old saying: "A crowd is always just two meals from being a mob, as the dog is always just two meals from being a wolf."

We don't have to walk as wolves. But show them the goddam fang. Always.

74 comments:

wcdixon said...

thanks for telling it like it is and saying it adequately and eloquently

Anonymous said...

We must dissent
/Sister Miriam Godwinson

Anonymous said...

Rumsfeld was spot-on with his Word War II analogy. Except he had the sides mixed up.

Here's an excerpt from an interview that Hermann Goering gave during the Nuremberg Trials. Does any of this sound familiar?

And that's why we need dissent in this country.


Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Ian said...

Thank you. I'm sure I would have run into this at some point, but it's fitting it was via here. I'm Canadian, but Olbermann still makes me feel very, very proud. Possibly just of being a human being.

Anonymous said...

"Will we now erect false gods to watch over us? How powerful we have become, and how blind!"
-- Sister Miriam Godwinson, "We Must Dissent"

(sorry-- somebody anonymously tripped one of my Geek Circuits)

Anonymous said...

So... saying that a particular set of critics are short-sighted and are repeating a historical mistake is the same or a step away from outlawing dissent itself? Please.

I don't even agree with his logic but you guys are really going out of your way to wring your hands over this one. By that line of thought, public officials should not to be allowed to state disagreement with dissenters. That's nonsense. Who's abridging whose speech at that point?

Anonymous said...

A timely message, to be sure. Why, if it weren't for the Daily Show, the Colbert Report, Keith Olbermann, the New York Times, The Nation, Counterpunch.org, 60 Minutes, "American Dreamz", Bill Maher, the Huffington Post, Daily Kos, Crooks and Liars, Firedoglake, Glenn Greenwald, the rest of the left-wing blogosphere, the rest of the liberal mainstream media, Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, John Murtha, George Clooney, George Soros, MoveOn.org, Ned Lamont, Helen Thomas, David Gregory, Barack Obama, Nacy Pelosi, the Democratic Party in general, Al Franken, little punk schoolkids, the 49% of the country that voted for Kerry, and this blog itself, we'd hardly have any dissent at all.

And while we're at it, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Anonymous said...

So just because you know you're not alone, you can relax?

I'm not entirely certain of that. In Canada, as in the United States...

The Minstrel Boy said...

dissent? damn right. i still take a moment when i get to meet somebody who was involved in the anti-war movement during viet nam to thank them for raising enough hell that they had to bring us home. sometimes they are surprised that i don't take the tack that "protesters back home lost the war" like so many others. the war was lost before the first boots hit the ground and remained a bloody, brutal lesson in futility the entire time we were there. after fifteen years of fighting the only thing that was obtained in the paris talks that wasn't on the table and offered before the first american advisors went over during the french retreat was that we produced a bitter, vengefull and in some ways psychotic group of victors. so now our leaders are asking us to stay the course in iraq so that they can produce even more batshit crazy and implacable mullahs to rule over the rubble and dust we leave behind?

Unknown said...

So... saying that a particular set of critics are short-sighted and are repeating a historical mistake is the same or a step away from outlawing dissent itself? Please.

I don't even agree with his logic but you guys are really going out of your way to wring your hands over this one. By that line of thought, public officials should not to be allowed to state disagreement with dissenters. That's nonsense. Who's abridging whose speech at that point?


Annnnnd this is the point we always arrive at.

"Appeasers" is not disagreement. "Moral confusion" is not "Short-sightedness". That says your opponents are making a moral choice to give in to the enemy. And on what basis is he making that statement? Who's the Hitler in this? Osama bin Ladin? Hussein? Iran? Who, by criticizing the fact that maybe, just maybe he's fucking up the fighting of this war, are we giving the keys to the car to?

That is not an accurate statement of the issue at all, and a word chosen for a reason. "Moral confusion" is not disagreement. Saying that criticism "helps al-Qeda types" is not disgreement. Morphing photos of war hero Max Cleland into Osamam bin Ladin during an election is not disagreement. This Administration has repeatedly, demonstrably, quotably, damn near daily equated ctiticism of itself with treason. And it's not the fringe -- The SECRETARY OF DEFENSE and THE VICE-PRESIDENT are out there saying that by disagreeing with this Administation's policies, were are encouraging or in some cases actively aiding the enemy.

This is the trick. Of course no one's trying to outlaw dissent. I'm not arguing we need to fight the outlawing of dissent. Because there's no need to outlaw dissent if a government uses its immense control of the public sphere to tar dissent as unpatriotic.

I want some accountability on Abu Ghraib -- not just for moral reasons, but because it was enormous strategic blunder. This government says I'm giving aid to the enemy by discussing it.

I want to ask about whether we actually have the troop numbers necessary to accomplish the nation-building mission we have -- and if not, whether we should pull troops out of a mission it is therefore literally impossible for them to accomplish -- and I am an "appeaser."

Go ahead and find everything this Administration's been questioned about, and with the sole exception of Katrina, watch how the response has been to accuse its critics of aiding the terrorists, or wanting to "cut and run." You'll soon grow weary.

The President speaks now only to hand-picked audiences, and at highly choreographed shows. Spontaneous confessions of love come from, it turns out, Republican party functionaries. Protesters are put in free speech zones, people with the wrong t-shirts are not allowed into assemblies

For chrissake, the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES has on numerous times openly said that a vote for Democrats will encourage terrorists and bring about another 9/11.

This Administration does not engage people who disagree with it -- they marginalize them, and accuse them, repeatedly of being soft on terror at best and actively encouraging and aiding terrorists at worse.

In one way, you're right -- Rumsfeld's comments are not particularly heinous on their face, or at least not more so than usual. I think we've just had a bellyful of being called traitors for the last three years, and even if we're not headed for a jail cell, we're sick of it. This was just the sticking point, a man who not only been wrong on an impressive number of issues, but arrogantly so, turning around and slamming the very morality of those who would do nothing more than question him, and by extension this Administration.

If you don't find that, as a tactic, morally reprehensible, well, different strokes for different folks.

I suggest we simply have different thresholds for when we choose to rally and act. For you, Matt, until the censorship laws are passed, there's no need to get in a tizzy, everyone's over-reacting. For me, I'd rather start a wee bit closer to the starting gate.

This is, also, for me, more general issue. I don't much trust power, and I couldn't be happier if every morning the President -- Republican or Democrat -- woke up, and his first thought was "Fuck. Fucking reporters. Fucking Congress. Fuck." There's way too much wink-and-nod bullshit going on in the beltway. I like my electorate surly.

Unknown said...

Oh, and that's a good list, Gaijin.

How many of those people are in power?

Did the President meet with Cindy Sheehan?

Wasn't John Murtha slurred and attacked relentlessly? PERSONALLY slurred?

Is the President leading the counrty as if he just got a 3% margin?

As for the Democratic party -- well, the current issue with Lieberman shows that they have a fair bit of rot in there to contend with.

"Liberal media"? Oh yeah. I remember when the NYT was all over the WMD issue.

Both Matt and Gaijin are addressing an entirely different issue. The presence of dissent does not contradict the argument that this Administration accusses dissenters of treason as a way to marginalize them or silence them. They are not mutually exclusive.

That's the same as saying "Racism? But black kids can go to school now. Discrimination is against the law. You're over-reacting."

I am not arguing that we have to go to the barricades and fight the imminent death of free speech. That would indeed be silly (although some people don't think so)

I am arguing that an Administration that accuses, repeatedly, its critics -- often not even opponents, its critics -- of treason or moral default needs its fucking teeth kicked in.

Wil Wheaton said...

Your two previous comments in this thread should be blog posts of their own, so jerks like me who read you in bloglines can see them.

Thanks for your comments (which I jacked and included in my vox blog) and thanks for your blog, also.

Unknown said...

Wheaton, you D20 rolling god. Good to see you here.

Noah said...

Hi! Long-time reader, first-time commentor. Your blog, as always, exceeds my expectations.

I agree and then some. And the people leading the charge behind dissent should be the media, regardless of which ideology is in power at the time. But alas, our bastion of free speech is largely missing, save for veiled comments by Brian Williams. At least Olbermann was overt.

And the charge of a "liberal media" is equally dead. If the media were indeed "liberal (in the new sense of the word--the hateful meaning espoused by Limbaugh et. al.--, not the classic Greek sense of the word meaning 'granting freedom')" then Olbermann would have Couric's job. Instead, we get a lady with 356 huge white teeth and a doctored photo. Some liberal media.

Maya's Granny said...

That more people don't recognize that this administration is taking guidance from Goering simply amazes me. Thank you for posting this.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Wil Wheaton. (I never thought I'd get an opportunity to say that.)

You should take those last few comments -- with the comments being replied to, for fairness and context -- and make them blog posts.

Anonymous said...

How many of those people are in power?

Pretty much all the politicians I mentioned, except Kerry, are in power. (I forgot to add Al Gore to the list, so that would be one for the "out of power" column. Feel free to stick him in, along with "An Inconvenient Truth", if you turn your comment into a new post with my comment included, as another commenter has suggested.)

Did the President meet with Cindy Sheehan?

Do Presidents usually meet with private citizens?

Wasn't John Murtha slurred and attacked relentlessly? PERSONALLY slurred?

A politician being personally slurred? Heavens to Betsy. I wish I had some pearls, so I could clutch them.

Is the President leading the counrty as if he just got a 3% margin?

A President is supposed to push his policies wholeheartedly, not in proportion to the percentage of the popular vote he garnered.

As for the Democratic party -- well, the current issue with Lieberman shows that they have a fair bit of rot in there to contend with.

And that's the Bush Administration's fault how?

"Liberal media"? Oh yeah. I remember when the NYT was all over the WMD issue.

If you think the NYT is a strong supporter of Bush's policies, you and I must be reading different papers.

You are correct that the Bush administration is not trying to outlaw dissent. But you overstate its power to shut down dissent by branding it as unpatriotic. By all accounts, the people who think criticism of Bush is unpatriotic liked him all along; they haven't switched sides out of fear of being branded traitors and run out of town. And the people who despise Bush seem to have no trouble speaking their minds.

If you want to champion dissent, why not dissent on behalf of people in a place like... oh, I don't know... Iran, where criticizing the government will get your blog shut down and land you in jail?

Anonymous said...

(Also, having Will Wheaton indirectly criticize my initial comment was kind of cool.)

nolo said...

I actually met John Murtha today. It makes this post even better for me. So does the fact that Wil Wheaton showed up to comment (yay Wil!!). Gaijin Biker, I can only surmise that you're being willfully obtuse. Sure, Murtha's an elected official and thus is in "power" (so's Kerry, actually, though you seem to have forgotten he's still a sitting senator). But they're both members of the minority party in a country where two of the three branches of government are controlled by Republicans, and the third branch has been heavily salted with Republican appointees, many of whom are hacks and ideologues (ask me how I know). Moreover, under the gentle ministrations of the likes of DeLay and Frist (and Gingrich before them), the institutional structures that used to provide some power to the minority party in either house of Congress have been systematically and intentionally hatcheted. Men like Murtha and Kerry retain some power in the legislative bodies to which they have been elected, but the Republican party and the present administration have done everything they can to destroy the institutional structures that once ensured that the minority party would have a measure of influence in lawmaking and policy in this country. And don't get me started on how the power of the appointment process has affected and undermined administrative agencies.

Every effort has been made to silence and marginalize the "loyal opposition" in the corridors of power. And every effort is being made in the realm of public discourse to demonize and marginalize the loyal opposition as well. Moreover, the language is familiar to anyone who's read any history.

There are other countries where the price of dissent is greater than it is in the U.S. But pointing to their problems doesn't make mine go away. If my house needs new siding, saying my neighbor needs a new roof isn't going to fix my problem. My house still needs work done, and you haven't convinced me otherwise.

Anonymous said...

You're right. I totally forgot that Kerry is in power, since I was thinking of him as a Presidential candidate. My bad.

Ross said...

"If you want to champion dissent, why not dissent on behalf of people in a place like... oh, I don't know... Iran, where criticizing the government will get your blog shut down and land you in jail?"

Are you trying to prove John's point or was this just a happy accident?

He never did (nor do I believe he would) defend Iran. Doesn't make things right over here, and your attempt to cloud the issue is transparent and weak.

Anonymous said...

So let's have it, John. Bring it down to earth for us and tell us what your dissent has cost you personally. And leave out the sticks and stones stuff. That absolutely flies both ways.

Are you really being branded a traitor in any meaningful way or are you being told (if that) that your viewpoint is helpful to the enemy? Will you admit the logical possibility that a difference exists between the two things? Is it inconceivable that an official regards a proposed course of action as being helpful to an enemy's cause yet doesn't think of its proponent a disloyal traitor that needs a hangin'?

Have I not heard you say that the administration's policies play right into the al Queda-types' hands? Or that Israel was just playing right into Hezbollah's hands? Was that a veiled accusation of treason? Would you find that to be a horribly irresponsible accusation to make if you had an audience of believers?

And, I noted, as one who likes to tout recent approval ratings you're awfully quick to assert that these guys have so much control over public thought patterns. As one who has a particular distaste for Cheney and sees the same in most of his right-leaning friends, I have a hard time believing that he carries such weight. I also have a hard time watching you dismiss the weight that various dissenting pundits, office holders and entertainers carry because they're "not in power". If we're talking about how people like you or I are made to feel, that's not fair game. Would I be wrong to take maya's granny's comment as a remark that people of my opinion would make good little Nazis?

You know, when the invading alien force comes down and starts eating us on the streets and we're fighting for our survival, there's going to be some guy standing on the corner with a sign saying that war is not the answer. Personally, I love that. I hope there's always that guy no matter what because war sucks. He's wrong, but that does not make him a traitor. That does not make him disloyal. In my opinion, that probably does make him "morally confused" and, objectively, useful to the enemy. Insert Voltaire here.

If I sincerely believe that a political opponent's course of action is of benefit to the enemy I certainly have the right, and probably the obligation, to say so. If the electorate's support for that opponent enables a course of action that I feel will benefit the enemy, I have the right to call that out, too. So do you. It is just the logical conclusion of our opinions. It's absolutely no different than telling people that voting for candidate xyz will benefit big business to the detriment of consumers, except where war is involved people are too quick to whip out the stigma of "treason", even if it is to tack it onto themselves. Same old ploy, different topic. It happened a lot more, and more openly, in previous years and yes, it really all does come down to differences in opinion.

I like your blog, John. Your political posts score some good points with me. But your need to feel persecuted or believe there's a cell waiting for you in Gitmo is still very hard for me to get my mind around when you only seem to be getting back a tiny fraction of the anger that you dish out.

Unknown said...

I mention the Democratic party issue with Lieberman in the point that even with an opposition party -- and with the Republicans controlling both Houses AND changing the committee rules and and hearing rules to even further disenfranchise the minority party -- that there is little institutional opposition to the Administrations's policies. And indeed, we see the unfortunate Mr. Lieberman following the Administration playbook, clamoring for World War 3 and claiming his opponents criticism of his policies somehow aids and abets the terrorists.

Criticizing the Administration's policies, despite doing so out of a sense of patriotism, gets one accused of supporting the enemy (or perhaps simple moral weakness or cowardice, all elements of the word "appeasement"). This is a very, very bad thing. And we may not see that, as it hasn't been used in a considerable length of time.

But it is vile. And I will not let it pass.

Do Presidents usually meet with private citizens?

Why yes. For example, he meets with Republican functionaries who want to make speeches next to him in NOLA, praising him. He meets with hand-picked Republicans at-Republican-only rallies paid for by all the citizens of this nation.

You're the one who mentioned Sheehan as a healthy sign of dissent. I don't see how a grieving mother attacked and slandered by the right wing press, tossed from Congress despite being there as the guest of a Congressperson, and ultimately ignored is a sign the Administration has a healthy relationship with the oppossition.

If you think the NYT is a supporter of ...

The fact they've grown a tiny bit of a spine recently in no way contradicts their acquiescence over the last six years. And the NYT is not the sum total of the American news media. You're out of the country, so take my word for it -- until the last six months or so, "fawning" would hardly be an improper word. And I hardly think returning to baseline "doing their job" makes up for "selling a war" quite yet.

A politician being personally slurred? Heavens to Betsy. I wish I had some pearls, so I could clutch them.

Well color me fucking delicate, a goddam DI war hero called a liar and coward -- A COWARD --by toadying sidekicks, instead of having his issues addressed respectfully and considerately gets my blood up. Yeah, it's wrong. It's not politics as usual. That's scum, pure and simple.

By all accounts, the people who think criticism of Bush is unpatriotic liked him all along; they haven't switched sides out of fear of being branded traitors and run out of town. And the people who despise Bush seem to have no trouble speaking their minds.

You know I respect you, but I am having a hard time here -- so the fact that the people who like Bush always liked him, and the people who don't like him can speak up, completely refutes any criticism of the Administration's policy of branding their opponents as traitors?

Because they do so, repeatedly, quotably, demonstrably, and for me, it is simple -- I don't care if it has no effect (debatable), it is wrong and dangerous and simply unAmerican to do so. It is morally wrong.

They are doing it for a reason. Hey, I know! They're branding their opponents as appeasers and terror-supporters because they want their opponents views to be heard and respected. Yesssssss. That's it.

You are not naive enough to think isuch constant, unwavering framing is not for the reason of not only discrediting their opponents, but circumventing the healthy debate necessary to the vital function of government.

That is their purpose. And whether it is materially effective or not, that behaviour is an intoxicating mix of cowardice, arrogance and malice. And being so, deserves to be answered. Because unanswered such behaviour is normalized. And a new baseline is set, for the next set of fellows who realize they need to dip into the treason bag for a little help.

If you want to champion dissent, why not dissent on behalf of people in a place like... oh, I don't know... Iran, where criticizing the government will get your blog shut down and land you in jail?

We'll address that after we see if we're going to bomb them or not. Because I will bet you that if and when we do so, those of us who argue for the exact same containment and engagement policy with which we triumphed over the Soviet Union will -- as sure as shit -- be branded "appeasers" yet again. Those of us who ask perfectly logical questions about fighting two wars, inflaming the Shia, endangering our supply lines, or most importantly bombing the shit out of a civilian population on a pre-emptive strike -- none of those questions will be materially answered. We'll just get a hand-wave, and some PR, and a condescending explanation about how this is The Great Struggle, and They Know What They're Doing. After all, our questions hav eno value -- it's just weak will and incomprehension.

This behaviour is wrong. I'm sorry you're not incensed by it. I am. It's wrong when they call me an "appeaser" it's wrong when they call you one. Period.

Big T said...

Olbermann in '08!

Oh, even better...

Olbermann/Rogers!

Unknown said...

So let's have it, John. Bring it down to earth for us and tell us what your dissent has cost you personally. And leave out the sticks and stones stuff. That absolutely flies both ways.

Right, unless people are going to jail, no harm no foul. No need to object to morally repugnant behaviour unless physical harm is done. After all, who did McCarthy put in jail? Who did Nixon put in jail? How many black people don't get jobs just because somebody says "nigger"? Don't get riled up.

Are you really being branded a traitor in any meaningful way or are you being told (if that) that your viewpoint is helpful to the enemy? Will you admit the logical possibility that a difference exists between the two things? Is it inconceivable that an official regards a proposed course of action as being helpful to an enemy's cause yet doesn't think of its proponent a disloyal traitor that needs a hangin'?

"(If that)"? For Christ sake, Matt, Cheney's said that disagreeing with Administration policy -- JUST DISAGREEING OR ASKING QUESTIONS -- somehow empowers al-queda types.

Rumsfeld said his critics suffer "moral or intellectual confusion about who or what is right or wrong." Not that they have different ideas on strategy. They are basically unworthy of debate.

Fromthe news today:

"Bush suggested last week that Democrats are promising voters to block additional money for continuing the war. Vice President Cheney this week said critics "claim retreat from Iraq would satisfy the appetite of the terrorists and get them to leave us alone." And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, citing passivity toward Nazi Germany before World War II, said that "many have still not learned history's lessons" and "believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased."

Pressed to support these allegations, the White House yesterday could cite no major Democrat who has proposed cutting off funds or suggested that withdrawing from Iraq would persuade terrorists to leave Americans alone.
"

Are those the actions of people angaged in honest deabte? Of respect for their oppoents views and criticisms?

It is, of course, absolutely possible an official regards a proposed course of action as being helpful to an enemy's cause yet doesn't think of its proponent a disloyal traitor that needs a hangin. But you need to then cede that it's absolutely possible a official can imply that his opponents are giving aid and comfort to the enemy without coming right out and saying the word "traitor", and charging them with the crime, as a way of controlling the debate. I'm all about the shades of grey here, which may be exactly the issue.

Have I not heard you say that the administration's policies play right into the al Queda-types' hands? Or that Israel was just playing right into Hezbollah's hands? Was that a veiled accusation of treason? Would you find that to be a horribly irresponsible accusation to make if you had an audience of believers?

Excellent point. I never would have thought of this way to explore the difference. Here it is.

"I think the Administration's choice in invading Iraq has given the radical Islamic world a rallying point, increasing terrorist recruitment."

"I think the Administration's choice in invading Iraq has given the Islamic world a rallying point, increasing terrorist recruitment ... because the Adminstration is making the conscious decision to aid al-queda, or at the very least appease them because they don't really know what's right and wrong. Or maybe they just want to run away and hope for the best, because they lack will, and shirk their responsibilites."

See the difference?

And, I noted, as one who likes to tout recent approval ratings you're awfully quick to assert that these guys have so much control over public thought patterns. As one who has a particular distaste for Cheney and sees the same in most of his right-leaning friends, I have a hard time believing that he carries such weight. I also have a hard time watching you dismiss the weight that various dissenting pundits, office holders and entertainers carry because they're "not in power". If we're talking about how people like you or I are made to feel, that's not fair game. Would I be wrong to take maya's granny's comment as a remark that people of my opinion would make good little Nazis?

Again, with all due respect, missing the point. First off, the Administration did quash debate about its policies using such techniques for a long time, and the fact that it's falling apart now is no excuse for the behaviour. That one side exists does not automatically contradict the influence or actions of the other side. It is not a zero sum game. I aam not saying there is no dissent -- that would be insane. What I am saying is that when anyone -- anyone in power starts throwing around "morally confused" and "aiding the enemy", then we as citizens must redouble our efforts to kick them in the teeth every chance we get.

You know, when the invading alien force comes down and starts eating us on the streets and we're fighting for our survival, there's going to be some guy standing on the corner with a sign saying that war is not the answer. Personally, I love that. I hope there's always that guy no matter what because war sucks. He's wrong, but that does not make him a traitor. That does not make him disloyal. In my opinion, that probably does make him "morally confused" and, objectively, useful to the enemy. Insert Voltaire here.

How about the dude with the sign who says "Hey, shouldn't we give our soldiers the right body armor to fight the aliens?" or, "Hey, it turns out the aliens are allergic to water, maybe we ought to use that instead" or even the sign that says "Hey, every time we kill an alien, two more step up in its place, we hsould think of another strategy" -- are those guys morally confused? Because that's what we're talking about here. These are the people being slandered and slurred. The War is Not the Answer guys all died in 1968, although we live with their goddam myth -- hell the myth of that whole goddam year -- as the dominant force in modern politics. Fucking narcissic Boomers.

If I sincerely believe that a political opponent's course of action is of benefit to the enemy I certainly have the right, and probably the obligation, to say so. If the electorate's support for that opponent enables a course of action that I feel will benefit the enemy, I have the right to call that out, too. So do you. It is just the logical conclusion of our opinions. It's absolutely no different than telling people that voting for candidate xyz will benefit big business to the detriment of consumers, except where war is involved people are too quick to whip out the stigma of "treason", even if it is to tack it onto themselves. Same old ploy, different topic. It happened a lot more, and more openly, in previous years and yes, it really all does come down to differences in opinion.

Well, we'll have to disagree there. I don't know what, short of show trials, you would consider improper use of the terms we're discussing. I think the main problem is not just the use of dog-whistle treason terms, it's the fact that they are used INSTEAD of debate as opposed to WITH it.

A lot of this anger is the pimple blowing after five years since 9/11. Let me see if I can put it a different way.

"Matt, I think we should surround all the school playgrounds with barbed wire and have ravaging packs of dogs patrolling them"

"I don't think that's the right thing to do. How about just a security guard and some cameras."

"Gee, um, okay, if you're okay with pedophiles. Want to give in to the pedophiles ..."

"WHAT THE FUCK --"

"Maybe you think the pedophiles will just go away. Huh. Okay. You know, by disagreeing with the barbed wire, you're de facto supporting the pedophiles."

But hey, Matt, why riled up? You're not going to jail for helping pedophiles. Nobody's actually calling you a pedophile. You're not losing your job because the government says you support pedophiles. So that shouldn't bother you at all, right? I mean, if nothing actually bad happens to you, that's not even really wrong is it?

Five years of that, mon ami, and your craw would be full too. Getting cranky.

I like your blog, John. Your political posts score some good points with me. But your need to feel persecuted or believe there's a cell waiting for you in Gitmo is still very hard for me to get my mind around when you only seem to be getting back a tiny fraction of the anger that you dish out.

I'm glad you dig the blog, and I hope you'll hang out, once I clarify something -- your assumption of my feeling of persecution, and its degree, is completely wrong.

You see, you went to the extreme point. You assume you know the degree of my mindset. I can understand that, because, well (not yours but much) of the conservatvie mindset is about persecution. "Those judges are changing my world! Those fags are getting special rights! Those Mexicans are getting my job! SOMEOBDY'S STEALING MY CHRISTMAS!"

I don't think there's a cell for me at Gitmo. That would be insane. But I don't think that, short of there being a cell for me at Gitmo, I ought to kick back and relax and not get my panties in a twist when I see politicians doing behaviour that I find morally repugnant and strategically short-sighted. I'm not being persecuted. But I don't need to be personally persecuted in order to object to behaviour. That's kind of a bullshit, selfish motivation, actually.

You are right -- I reacted strongly. And in retrospect, it's not all about Rumsfeld's comments, they were more the launchpad for my greater, general bugaboo. I do not think we harass, harangue, and dog the government of this nation to the degree we are obliged to do as citizens. We don't even bother to vote in elections where no one's shooting at us.

Call it dissent, call it doubt -- I want more of it, to the very limits of what can be had and have the government still function. That Cheny and Rumsfled et al use language symptomatic of that vile cancer of entitlement in the government (every government, btw), that's just a very oily rag to throw in the general direction of my pilot light.

Anger's not a sin. Nor is it the sign of the end of reasoned discussion. For me, anger is the length of steel, and reason the edge of the blade. You can't have one without the other.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm. I'm getting the sense that we're talking to the popular caricature of each other's argument. To avoid perpetuating that cycle, I'll sleep on it. When I get back, I'll try to be more on point. Or retread the same ground with more gusto. Either one.

CB said...

"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?

~ Thomas Jefferson

President of The United States of America 1801-1809
in a letter to William S. Smith Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

batcave911 said...

i cant beleive this admin is so blatently behinnd this war still.
one would think that they would learn, or at least worry about what the polulous thinks.
evidently not.
This is all the more reason to show how dangerous they are.
when they do things in the light, against the polulous,
now they are basically saying "i dont care what you think"

its our way or the highway.


(well maybe not the highway, maybe a detention camp)


I come to you from New Orleans with a message.

i used to think they dont give a shit about the people...
I was wrong !~
they care !~

they care if you are either with them , or against them.

if you are against them
(this includes, democrats, blacks, labor, lower-class, lower-income, green-party, independants, pro-choice, an immigrant, an arab, on social security, on welfare, ...)

well, im sure i could go on.

Brad
911review.org

Anonymous said...

You know I respect you, but I am having a hard time here -- so the fact that the people who like Bush always liked him, and the people who don't like him can speak up, completely refutes any criticism of the Administration's policy of branding their opponents as traitors?

Because they do so, repeatedly, quotably, demonstrably, and for me, it is simple -- I don't care if it has no effect (debatable), it is wrong and dangerous and simply unAmerican to do so. It is morally wrong.


In the speech (transcript here) that is the subject of this post, and Olbermann's rant, Rumsfeld does not call anyone a traitor. He doesn't even use the word "traitor". In fact, he does not directly criticize war opponents at all. He does warn agains "moral or intellectual confusion", but he doesn't even accuse any person or group of such confusion specifically.

By contrast, when I Google "Rumsfeld traitor", the top links are all sites calling Rumsfeld a traitor (sometimes with a few choice epithets thrown in for good measure). I guess that's not "un-American" and "morally wrong", because these brave dissidents are Speaking Truth To Power.

Hugh Williams said...

Give it up, John.

There's no way to debate today's rightwing authoritarian morons who troll the InterTubes. I gave up long ago. They are stupid, misinformed ignoramuses with little knowledge of the world or history.

To GOP cultists, there is no such thing as a non-partisan fact. Everything can be spun in their favor.

For instance:
************************
In a speech laced with quotes from Osama bin Laden, President Bush said on Tuesday that five years after the September 11 attacks, al Qaeda wants to set up a violent, radical Islamic caliphate based in Iraq and vowed he would not let this happen on his watch.
Reuters
Bush warns of Iraqi caliphate

September 5, 2006

We have significantly degraded the al–Qaida network . . . Terrorist networks today are more dispersed and less centralized. They are more reliant on smaller cells inspired by a common ideology and less directed by a central command structure.

The White House
National Strategy for Combating Terrorism

September 5, 2006
************************
Of course, having it both ways doesn't cause cognitive dissonance to the modern wingnut. Rush and his vile ilk have conditioned the tiny 'winger brain through decades of "We're popular, powerful and run the world, yet we're victimized by liberals and the press."

Anonymous said...

SUNK DEBUNKED

The doubters of a course of action,
The doubters of a rush to war,
They are belittled to distraction,
Misrepresented, taunted sore--

But by your lies and defamation
You think to scold, yet season us
Who criticize our errant nation,
Which act was never "treasonous."

"Guilty of treason" thus prejudged
Of any who opposed the war,
Such slanders as will be begrudged,
Nor not forgotten any more.

Perhaps the course was almost right;
Alas because extortion´s means
Planned righteousness was dealt a blight,
Your credibility careens
As sunk debunked--fit for latrines.

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